LOL, yes he has yet to make a showing to win the votes of black america like John Kerry (who won 90% of their vote). I can really see the black vote going to Tom Vilsack in the primaries.
You are missing the point. I'm not arguing on MY behalf. I'm simply commenting about the article, which is the point of the thread, that blacks are largly luke warm to the guy. I never said he is in 'trouble.' In fact, just the opposite. If he can get the popular white vote ...I'm sure he'll also get much of the black vote too. As of right now, I think he'll be a strong contender. but that isn't the point of the thread. The thread is simply talking about a nuances of the larger picture that is that blacks arn't energized by this guy ...YET. Personally, I hope Obama runs and he gives me a reason to get excited about him. So far, he is charismatic and a good public speaker. But I know very little about him ...as do most Americans.
There's virtually no evidence that blacks are "largely lukewarm" to him other than Stanley Crouch. In fact there's a lot of evidence that is the exact opposite.
Ok. Let me make a distinction in my verbiage. I think Obama will get the majority of the vote of blacks ...by default. But getting votes and energizing an entire voting block are two different things. If Obama can ENERGIZE the black community, he'll get voters to come out to the polls that otherwise wouldn't even bother to vote at all.
I'm also giving you PERSONAL opinion. In my opinion, blacks are on a wait-and-see basis with Obama. They are excited to see a black man as a contender but nobody really knows what this guy is about yet. That's my personal experience. People are interested but they arn't energized by the guy. Blacks certainly are NOT saying that they won't vote for him ...they are just saying they don't know much about him. Personally, I think that is perfectly reasonable. Disagree?
You didn't seem to take much of a wait and see approach - you said that he had nothing in common with blacks, didn't do anything with civil rights, - basically the exact opposite of reality. Yeah, well it's hard to figure out what Obama's about, given that he's written two books and been the subject of countless media profiles over the last few years and made thousands of public appearnces.
Never once said he didn't do anything with civil rights. I said: 1. Skin color: yes. 2. Culture: different (given his mixed heritage upbringing) 3. Religion: appears to be different ...and perception is king. 4. Class: above average. All largly factual statements ...at least that is the perception and as I said ...perception is king. 1. Public appearances surrounding his Chicago political life. Very few public appearances on a national scene. 2. Many American's don't read a lot of books. Why are you debating this? If the American public was really politically savvy then perhaps people would know more about Obama. But he hasn't been a figure on the national scene ...yet. Why is that hard for you?
Actually no there's a hefty amount of spin and negative assumptions worked in by you and pitched as perception about his lack of understanding of "culture". His "above average" class - he was raised by his grandparents - a furniture salesman and a bank clerk in a small apartment. Above average? I also didn't know that everybody with an african name was automatically not christian and not recognized by black americans. Think of how many cd's Nas would have sold had he just been named "Nat"... if Tupac Shakur were really Tupac Jackson, he'd have actually been somebody...And we all know how blacks automatically reject all things muslim. I mean who ever heard of black american muslims? Untrue. You're trying to rationalize the jealousy that a few people feel towards obama and blow it out of proportion, based on a very shoddy understanding of facts (which is lazy, given how readily available they are). The perception of Obama as unable to obtain black support is a fabrication, plain and simple.
krosfyah, I think this is what Sam is bringing up. Actually, Obama has said a great deal about civil rights, and has put thought to action. What Sam isn't giving you credit for is saying that you, "haven't heard Obama say very much." I think as you learn more about him, you'll be impressed with what he's done in the area, and what he thinks about civil rights... not just for Blacks, but for everyone. D&D. Happy New Year!
The funny thing is that the "obama isn't black enough" line that is being peddled here is more than likely part of a deliberate smear campaign by right wingers to undercut him. Look at this report, for example: This is badly written, thinly veiled hit job that's circulated as news by "Taylor Media Services". I googled "Taylor Media Services" and it's apparently some low budget PR firm run out of some sh-thead's basement. http://www.taylormediaservices.com/index.htm But anyway, Republicans (like the asshat above) have seized on this to attempt to derail the Obama train. Pretty futile, in all likelihood.
The main thing this whole issue tells me is that race has far more to do with culture than skin color. I can understand why many African-Americans might not feel a kinship with Obama since he isn't the descendents of slaves and his family didn't go through the civil rights struggles but I find it strange that from that they could question how black he is. Barack Obama under segregation would be considered black and would've had to sit at the back of the bus and been subject to Jim Crow laws if he had been alive prior the Civil Rights movement, yet according to this article somehow he's bypassing the historical racism since he's coming from a different background. It seems to me that the author of this article is arguing that being black is an internal matter among African-Americans and not a matter of wider society. While groups have the right to define themselves this seems divisive and self-defeating for instance saying that Obama's success isn't really a sign of success for African-Americans since he isn't really black. I think the fact that many Americans of any race would be willing to vote for a man who 40 years ago would be subject to segregation based on his looks should be considered a success for African-Americans even if his background is different.
You are COMPLETELY misunderstanding me. (as an FYI: I am black) I am not commenting necessarily from my own perceptions of Obama. I am merely trying to account for WHY Obama has the perception that he does. Negative spin and assumptions ABSOLUTELY comes into play. As I've said, I am really excited about Obama and hope he runs because I feel he has what it takes to finally energize America to rally people behind him. But so far, generally speaking people don't know much about him. I'm glad that you already love Obama. But I don't personally know a single person that can tell you anything substantive about him. Not one. And in my circles, nobody is casually talking about him. He just doesn't come up in conversation (he did a little after the Dem Convention). You think I'm attacking him ...but I'm not. You CLEARLY have misunderstood me if you think I am a right-winger. You definately haven't heard me say 'obama isn't black enough.' In fact, that statement is insulting. My point is that being "back" is a far more complex subject than you understand. Your mere statement is a testament to that.
Maybe so but Obama has been predominantly a local figure in the Chicago area. Two years ago, 99% of people outside of Chicago had never heard of this guy. That's all I'm saying. What he had done in terms of the Civil Rights movement will be exactly the type of stuff he'll need to compaign on if he wants to energize African Americans because as of right now, few people know about it. Glad he's done it but if nobody knows then it doesn't get him much political sway ...on the national level.
The point is that he doesn't really have the perception that you think he does save in a few isolated instances. The fact that the question is even being asked is a ruse (honestly, do you think blacks outside of Tennessee know much about Harold Ford Jr.? Do you think people are asking whether Italians will back Giuliani? Chris Dodd? Tom Vilsack?) and the "perception" is largely an artificial creation, which Republicans love it when you believe it and propagate it. Hell trader jorge has been posting this kind of sh-t for years now. (while on the other end, good people like basso think it's hilarious to call him darkie saddam hussein osama - oh so clever. Might as well just call him n-gger and be done with it.) I don't think being "black" is so complex that Obama of all people can't understand it. In fat I'd say judging from his resume he understands it as much or more than most of his critics. To be quite frank, the preceding generation of black political leaders has been extremely disappointing. If anybody is complaining that Obama is not similar enough to Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, etc., that's really a positive as far as I'm concerend - regardless of color.
Just an FYI...I noticed that his religion was brought up in a couple of posts. He is a member of the United Church of Christ. An interview from the UCC website here: Exclusive: UCC member Sen. Barack Obama discusses faith and politics Written by Barb Powell Thursday, 29 June 2006 CLEVELAND -- Calling the propensity of media programmers to feature a particular religious viewpoint “unfortunate,” UCC member Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) -- in an exclusive United Church News interview June 28, 2006 -- said that he hoped for change. “I think it is unfortunate any time the media does not accurately portray the true beliefs of the American people,” Obama told United Church News. “There are millions of religious Americans who are offended when their faith is used as a tool to attack and divide, and who see a positive role for the church in solving both social and moral problems. To the extent that media programmers do not give voice to these Americans, I am disappointed and hopeful of change.” Interviewed on the heels of a major address on the connection between religion and politics at the “Pentecost 2006: Building a Covenant for a New America” gathering in Washington, D.C., Obama cited the welcome he received by his pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, and the teachings of the UCC as foundation stones for his political work. “Just as my pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright from Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, welcomed me as a young man years ago, UCC churches across the country open their doors to millions of Americans each Sunday, and they accept, love and counsel all who enter,” Obama said. “This spirit of inclusiveness has served as a model for me in my time in the Senate, and the love for one’s fellow man that the UCC stands for is the foundation of my work.” Obama also referred to his spiritual journey in his address at the Pentecost 2006 event, held at National City Christian Church and sponsored by Sojourners magazine and Call to Renewal, a faith-based movement to overcome poverty. Using the speech as a call for continued dialogue and bridge-building between religious conservatives and progressives -- reminding his audience that each had work to do to achieve meaningful discourse -- Obama used his own faith story, and likened his path to becoming a member of Trinity UCC to that trod by “millions upon millions of Americans -- evangelicals, Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Muslims alike; some since birth, others at certain turning points in their lives.” “It is not something they set apart from the rest of their beliefs and values. In fact, it is often what drives their beliefs and their values,” Obama said. “And that is why, if we truly hope to speak to people where they’re at -- to communicate our hopes and values in a way that’s relevant to their own … we cannot abandon the field of religious discourse.” “I think it’s time that we join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy,” said Obama. “When we discuss religion only in the negative sense of where or how it should not be practiced, rather than in the positive sense of what it tells us about our obligations towards one another; when we shy away from religious venues and religious broadcasts because we assume that we will be unwelcome -- others will fill the vacuum, those with the most insular views of faith, or those who cynically use religion to justify partisan ends,” Obama said. “In other words, if we don’t reach out to evangelical Christians and other religious Americans and tell them what we stand for, then the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons and Alan Keyeses will continue to hold sway.” After his electrifying address, the crowd -- estimated at 500 -- gave Obama a standing ovation. Jim Wallis, Sojourner’s editor-in-chief and host of the event, took the stage following Obama’s speech. “I hope you realize what you’ve heard here,” Wallis told the audience. “This will be an address that will be quoted for years to come.” Marian Wright Edelman, founder of the Children’s Defense Fund and a speaker at the conference, called the address “very, very, very thoughtful.” Later -- during his interview with United Church News -- Obama continued his thoughts about religion and politics; specifically, the role of religious principles in reaching a balance between national security and social justice concerns. “I believe that democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal values,” Obama said. “Social justice and national security are both universal values, values that may originate for some in their religious beliefs, but are shared by us all.” “I think it is up to individual pastors and faith leaders to help guide religious Americans in prioritizing what is in their own holy books,” he added. “But when these priorities come to the Senate floor, I can tell you that the universal values of both security and justice for all motivate my work.” Returning to the comment during Obama’s address that dialogue must continue between all people of faith, United Church News pressed Obama, asking how to know when dialogue is no longer fruitful and when we must -- as Jesus said -- “shake the dust from our feet” and move on. “In the political arena, there is almost always time for dialogue,” Obama replied. “Even if you’ve lost on a given issue, it will likely come up again in the future. So I’m always open to engage with others, even those who disagree with my positions, as long as the dialogue remains fair-minded and respectful.” “When it strays from those principles,” he concluded, “there may have to be a little ‘dust-shaking.’” Read the keynote address delivered by Sen. Barack Obama during “Pentecost 2006: Building a Covenant for a New America.” Find out more about Sojourners and Call to Renewal. linky: http://news.ucc.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=601&Itemid=54
Thank you for that, Supermac. I'm agnostic myself, but those remarks by Obama remind me of some of the moderation and openness I admire so much about our own Max. And they ring true. Barack addresses a national problem of immense importance, in my opinion, with effortless grace. D&D. Let's have a Wonderful New Year.
Well, that is your opinion that he doesn't have that perception. My perception mostly matches what the article says. Even if the Republicans are the ones purveying that perception, it doesn't matter. Perception is reality. Afterall, the Republicans put out the perception that John Kerry was not patriotic with the Swiftboat scam. Love it or hate it ...that was the perception and it stuck. You are putting words in my mouth again. I said being 'black' is more complex then PEOPLE understand. People such as yourself because YOU are purveying the stereotype that African Americans don't think he is 'black enough.' Blacks aren't saying that. Only whites are saying that anytime blacks say we don't know what to think about him. It's insulting. You clearly do not understand what it means to be black or you wouldn't say that. Being black is more than skin color. Just cause the guy is black doesn't mean we'll automatically support the guy. We are waiting to hear more from him. Please answer ONE question: Why is it wrong that African Americans are waiting to learn more about the guy before throwing our support behind him. Please answer this one question. Maybe so but all I'm saying is it doesn't AUTOMATICALLY translate into people throwing parties in the street for the guy. Why is that so bad?
I think I sort of understand what Krosfyah is saying. When people in Minnesota see me wearig Rockets gear at the Rox / T-Wolves game automatically presume I'm a Rockets' fan because of Yao Ming. They don't consider that its possible that an Asian would be rooting for the Rox if not for them having a Chinese player on the roster. Just because Yao Ming is Chinese though doesn't mean I would automatically root for any team that has Yao Ming. I'm rooting for him because he his on the Rox and helping the Rox win. Sort of in the same way Krosfyah is saying that African-Americans aren't going to automatically support Obama because he looks like them but they are waiting to see how much he supports African-American causes.
And my point is that this is an artificial story, helped along with a healthy dose of ignorance about him being a rich muslim from hawaii. How many stories were there about the lack of support for John Kerry by "regular" african americans in 2002? Was there a story about whites in 2002 saying "yeah, john kerry's a good man, but I don't know much about him"? What did Kerry do in 2004 to obtain tthe black vote? Look gawky at a couple of church functions? Are we really honestly worried that Obama isn't capable of that? Aside: what is Obama supposed to do to "tell people more about himself"? The guy is a rockstar and he's not even running for president yet. Turn on the news, pick up a newspaper, or use the internet if you're interested in learning more about him (and don't give me the line that he doesn't try to talk to african americans, not true at all, he's spoken at the NAACP on many occasions and made the rounds of churches, etc - and he's done this for years since he came up as a community organizer and a civl rights attorney) Second - this might sound offensive, but in all seriousness,since whites are both in the majority and vote at a higher percentage than blacks or hispanics or asians - of course a candidate that appeals to them is going to get more play. If blacks are offended by that - they need to vote more, plain and simple. Had they increased their turnout to match that of whites in 2000 or 2004 - there is a chance that the mistake of GWB would have never happened. However I'm not sure if blacks are concentrated enough in swing states for it to make a difference. Really it doesn't matter if Obama gets 99% trunout of registered voters in DC or 50% turnout (closer to reality) - he gets the same electoral votes either way. African Americans will support Obama - in droves, like they do in Chicago, becuase he is the best option. Plain and simple.
^ I agree that Obama has done a lot for African-Americans and have addressed the issues related to African-Americans. I'm also a political junky as are you who follows these things closer than most people. The fact is Obama is a first term US Senator who prior to that was a State Senator. He doesn't have the same amount of political history as someone like Hillary Clinton or John McCain. You're argument is that everyone should be as informed as you. Well maybe they should be but that doesn't mean that they are.
