Azadre's Thread on Islam (aka you have questions, I have answers)

More like plot twists and character development.

The only explosion I can think of in the Bible is the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah (no stunt guys used- no special effects allowed), the only car chase I can think of at the moment is the one in Boerne Supremacy (I liked it but hard to believe the car could hold up to all that)

 

There are a couple of definitions for miracle:

1.An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God

2.One that excites admiring awe. See Synonyms at wonder.


I believe in the second too.

Are you saying that all miracles could be scientifically explained if we had the knowledge? Or do they require a direct intervention by god and are completely unexplainable? Could some be unexplainable, then later become explainable and still be considered miracles?

 

something that appears inexplicable may later be explained. i'm saying, that may or may not minimize it in my eyes as a miracle.

i'm saying i'm sure God can explain it....whether we can or can't.

 

What about when Asahel was chasing Abner? That was a pretty intense chase scene, albeit on foot.

 

most of the Jewish leadership did.

of course, all of his disciples and founders of the early church were Jews.

 

In the early writings of the New Testament the one consistant theme is the number of eye witness accounts to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

The diversity of witnesses would include-

John the disciple
Mary His mother
The Chief Jewish Priests (who were convinced his disciples would try to fake His resurrection so they went to the Romans to demand a guard be placed at His tomb- and they would have been outraged if anyone else was on the cross)
Jewish Scribes and Lawyers who mocked Him at the cross concerning His teachings
Mary Magdalene
A Roman Centurian familiar with His teaching
Nicodemus a Pharisee
Joseph of Arimathaea an honest counselor

These were all eye witnesses along with many others to Jesus being on the cross and dying.

The Bible makes several references to the importance that there were eye witness accounts to both His death and resurrection.

Peter declared that he was a personal witness to these things three times in the Book of Acts.
John said that he spoke of the things he saw and heard.

Christians believe this testimony from these witnesses.

 

This is an interesting side note. If you think about the odds of any particular event happening, like me having yogurt and Grapenuts for breakfast, since the beginning of the Universe it would be impossible to calculate since even a minor change somewhere along the line could've caused me to not have yogurt and Grapenuts for breakfast then everything is a miracle including what I ate for breakfast.

 

Just another tangent. I've always felt the Jews have gotten a very bad rap from Christianity. As MadMax points out the founders of Christianity were Jewish but at the sametime can the Pharisees and others be blamed for not believing Jesus was the Messiah? Throughout Jewish history there have been several who have claimed to be the Messiah so from their standpoint Jesus was one of many.

Random rambling and trying to get back on track with this thread. From what I've heard is that traditionally Christians have been more anti-semitic than Muslims and for most of history Jews have been persecuted much more in Christian Europe than they had in Muslim lands. The current wave of anti-semiticism in Islam seems to be more an outgrowth of the political situation with Israel than it does with religion.

 

Are you trying to say that God created you since calculating at the beginning of the universe the odds of you by random chance eating Grapenuts and yogurt is an impossibility?

Try calculating the odds of you and I having lunch together at Yao's place just 5 yrs. ago. Who'd a thunk it!

Hope we can get together again - maybe when the Rockets win their next championship- what are the odds!

 

Wouldn't that also mean natural disasters are God inspired?

 

hmmm...i don't know. i truly don't know.

i can tell you this...there is a ton of talk in the New Testament from some early believers, including Peter, about whether non-Jews could be true followers of Christ and recipients of his grace. that was a real issue for the very early church. Paul, who became the strongest and most vocal proponent of the idea that Christ did come to save the entire world, not just Jews, said that God's covenant with the Jews never stopped. That God doesn't break his covenants/promises. Further, he suggested that Jews were the original tree...and non-Jews were grafted in to the tree. I have a close Jewish friend and we were talking about Jesus once. My point to him was, without Jesus, I never know the Hebrew God. St. Patrick doesn't come to Ireland to tell us of the one, true God. Jesus fulfilled those old testament prophecies big time.

i would also suggest this...one who would demean or persecute another....they can call themselves anything they want. But I'd have a very hard time calling them a follower of Christ. That does not mean I'm blameless before God...I'm certainly not. But if their life is spent in that way...and they never turn from it and ask forgiveness...I don't think God's real cool with that, in my understanding of Christian theology.

as for Muslims...I will say, and another Muslim in this thread agreed with me, that the language in the Koran is pretty strong against Jews. Jesus was real harsh with Jewish leadership because he smelled hypocrisy...but Jesus himself was Jewish...and so were his disciples. There was no condemnation of the Jewish people by Christ. Not even a little bit. But the Koran has some pretty harsh rebuke for Jews "messing it all up."

 

i don't think i can say no to that. i wrestle with that. God isn't always easy for me to digest...I just trust He knows what He's doing, ultimately.

 

Sometimes I wonder if God's focus is upon collective humanity or the individual. It can apply to both for some people, but not everyone.

It's one of those ponderings that has an indefinite conclusion.

 

Hey, that's my point. Everything can be considered a miracle - it's just that some things just appear more miraculous than others at certain times. It's all depends on our perceptions, emotions, labeling etc.

If you never saw falling rain before it may look like a miracle, but to others it's a nuisance. Same goes for natural disasters etc. They are what they are, and we only label them "good" or "bad", or "miracle".

I can't believe in divine intervention because I cant believe that the outside can be separate from the inside, especially if they supposed to interact. Therefore it is all a part of each other and all is "divine". In the ultimate, the ideas of "divine" and "unholy" are meaningless.

 

i think he has it all in mind.

 

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544478

Title of Fatwa Why Does Allah Allow Suffering and Evil in the World?
Date of Reply 27/Jul/2004
Topic Of Fatwa Muslim Belief
Country Applied Algeria
Question of Fatwa I was wondering if you could possibly help me resolve some conflicting issues. If God is All-Powerful, He must be able to prevent evil. If God is All-Good, He must want to prevent evil. But evil and suffering exist. How is it possible for God to be both All-Powerful and All-Good and still allow a world in which evil and suffering exist? I would greatly appreciate a response.



Name of Mufti Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi
Content of Reply

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother, in Islam, thanks for the question you posed, it's very interesting, and that is why we also try our best to furnish you with appropriate answer.

In response to your question, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, Director of the Islamic Society of Orange County and President of the Islamic Society of North America, states:

“Indeed Allah is All-Powerful (Al-'Aziz) and He is able to do all things ('ala kull sha'in qadir). The Qur'an has mentioned this hundreds of times. It is also mentioned in the Qur'an that Allah is the Creator and He is the Best Creator. “Glory be to Allah, the best Creator.” (Al-Mu'minun: 14)

But then the question comes why do pain and sufferings exist in the world. We find sickness, old age and death. We see things that are ugly, people who are insane and foolish. There are storms, earthquakes, floods, draught and famine. We also see people commit sins, show disloyalty, unfaithfulness, greed and insincerity. We see people commit rapes, murders; they fight and make wars. We know all these and many more problems. There are evils caused by human beings and there are natural disasters. There are suffering for individuals and there are those that involve a large number of people.

But we also know that this is not the whole story. Besides all these negative things, we also see beauty, health, prosperity, life, birth, wisdom, intelligence, growth and progress. We also see goodness among people, faith, sincerity, charity, love and the spirit of sacrifice. We also see a lot of virtue and piety. It is wrong to see one side of the coin and not to see the other side. Any philosophy that concentrates on one aspect of the creation and denies or ignores the other side is partially true and partial truths are no truth at all.

It is also the fact that the element of good is more in the creation than the element of evil. We all see that there are more people who are healthy than those who are sick. There are more that eat well than those who starve.

There are more that lead decent life than those who commit crimes. Goodness is the rule and evil is the exception. Virtue is the norm and sin is the aberration. Generally trees bear fruits, the flowers bloom, the winds move smoothly.

But then the question is why does Allah allow these exceptions to the rules?

Let us ask this question to understand Allah's ways in His creation. The Qur'an tells us that good, evil and whatever happens in this world happens by Allah's Will (mashi'at Allah). Only Allah knows fully His Will. We finite beings cannot grasp fully His infinite Will and Wisdom. He runs His universe the way He deems fit. The Qur'an tells us that Allah is Wise and everything that Allah does is right, just, good and fair. We must submit and surrender to His Will. The Qur'an has not given us all the details about Allah's Will, but it has enlightened us with the guidance that is useful and sufficient for us. There are several points that we should keep in our mind to understand this issue:

1. First of all, Allah did not make this world a permanent world. This is a temporary world and everything here has a time limit. When its times comes it will die, come to an end and finish. Neither the good things of this world are forever, nor the bad things eternal. We are here for a short time and we are being tested. Those who will pass this test will find an eternal world that is perfect and permanent. Those who will fail this test shall see the evil consequences of their sins and corruption.

2. Allah has placed a physical law and a moral law in this universe. Allah allows suffering to occur when one or more of these laws are broken. The physical law is based on cause and effect. Sickness comes if one does not take care of one's health or is exposed to infections. A car accident occurs when one is not alert, or drives in a careless manner, or if the cars are not checked, roads and freeways are not made and kept in right shape, or the traffic laws are not right or not properly enforced. Study of causes and effects is very important to facilitate safeguards. Even here we should keep in mind that Allah often saves us and He does not let us suffer from every negligence. How many times it happens that we are not careful and still we reach safely to our destinations. The way people drive in some cities, it is a miracle that more accidents do not happen and more people do not suffer. Allah says:

“(Allah) Most Gracious! It is He Who has taught the Qur'an. He has created man: He has taught him speech (and Intelligence). The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed; and the herbs and the trees both (alike) bow in adoration. And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice), in order that you may not transgress (due) balance. So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance. It is He Who has spread out the earth for (His) creatures." (Ar-Rahman:1-10)

The way we exceed the measures set by Allah and violate His laws of cause and effect is incredible. It is really the mercy of Allah that we are saved. Strictly speaking, the question should not be why does Allah allow suffering, but how much Allah protects us and saves us all the time in spite of our violations and negligence. The Qur'an says:

“If Allah were to punish people according to what they deserve, He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His servants." (Fatir:45)

But sometimes Allah does punish people because of their violations of His laws whether they are physical or moral. The Qur'an tells us that many nations and communities were destroyed because of their sinful lifestyles:

“If they treat thy (mission) as false, so did the Peoples before them (with their Prophets), the People of Noah, and Ad and Thamud. Those of Abraham and Lut; and the Companions of the Madyan people; and Moses was rejected (in the same way). But I granted respite to the Unbelievers, and (only) after that did I punish them: but how (terrible) was My rejection (of them)! How many populations have We destroyed, which were given to wrong-doing! They tumbled down on their roofs. And how many wells are lying idle and neglected, and castles lofty and well-built?" (Al-Hajj: 42-45)

3. Suffering can also be a test and trial for some people. Allah allows some people to suffer in order to test their patience and steadfastness. Even Allah's Prophets and Messengers were made to suffer. Prophet Ayyub (Job) is mentioned in the Qur'an as a Prophet who was very patient. Good people sometimes suffer but their sufferings heal others and bring goodness to their communities. People learn lessons from their good examples. Martyrs die for their faith, soldiers give their lives for their nations and this brings liberation and freedom for their people.

4. Allah sometimes allows some people to suffer to test others, how they react to them. When you see a person who is sick, poor and needy, then you are tested by Allah. Allah is there with that suffering person to test your charity and your faith. In a very moving Hadith Qudsi (Divine Hadith) the Prophet, peace be upon him, said:

“Allah will say on the Day of Judgment, ‘O son of Adam, I was sick and you did not visit Me.' He will say, ‘O my Lord, how could I visit You, when you are the Lord of the Worlds.' Allah will say, ‘Did you not know that My servant so-and-so was sick and you did not visit him? Did you not know that if you had visited him, you would have found Me there?' Allah will say, ‘O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not.' He shall say, ‘O my Lord, how could I feed you and you are the Lord of the Worlds?' And Allah will say, ‘Did you not know that My servant so-and-so was in need of food and you did not feed him? Did you not know that if you had fed him, you would have found that to have been for Me?' ‘O son of Adam, I asked you for water and you did not give Me to drink.' The man shall say, ‘O my Lord, how could I give You water, when You are the Lord of the Worlds?' Allah will say, ‘My servant so-and-so asked you for water and you did not give him to drink water. Did you not know that if you had given him to drink, you would have found that to have been for Me.' (Muslim, Hadith no. 4661)

Prophet 'Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, is also reported to have said something similar. (See Matthew 25: 35-45)

So to summarize, we can say that sufferings occur to teach us that we must adhere to Allah's natural and moral laws. It is sometimes to punish those who violate Allah's natural or moral laws. It is to test our faith in Allah and to test our commitment to human values and charity. Whenever we encounter suffering we should ask ourselves, “Have we broken any law of Allah?” Let us study the cause of the problem and use the corrective methods. “Could it be a punishment?” Let us repent and ask forgiveness and reform our ways. “Could it be a test and trial for us?” Let us work hard to pass this test.

Believers face the sufferings with prayers, repentance and good deeds. The non-believers face the sufferings with doubts and confusions. They blame Allah or make arguments against Him.

May Allah keep us on the right path, Amen!

Allah Almighty knows best.

 

Jihad and the Modern World
by Dr. Sherman Jackson,
Journal of Islamic Law and Culture, Spring / Summer, 2002
http://users.tpg.com.au/dezhen/jihad_and_the_modern_world.html

 

It very well could be. I don't think it can ever be rationally proven either way.

At the risk of diverting this into an Evolution vs ID debate I think the issue of if God created the Universe is a question beyond science. Rational thought can help us understand how things happened but not if there was a prime motivator. For instance you could rationally trace a chain of causal events leading to me eating yogurt and Grapenuts from any particularly point of time (an Evolution of Sishir's breakfast) but that wouldn't answer the question of why in the first place Sishir, yogurt or Grapenuts exist in the first place.

We always have faith!

 

Thanks for the read.

I would assume that the temporariness of this existence and God reserving final judgement would outweigh direct Divine intervention and subsequently God possibly breaking a physical law that God has previously laid down.

I remember planning out college courses based on the instructor's rumored exams. I passed many of them based on the professor's generosity and general class curve, but after hearing other the stories of other students, boy was I glad I had a choice.