Azadre's Thread on Islam (aka you have questions, I have answers)

Complete and utter fabrication, with all due respect to the author.

The Prophet DID consult the sahaba (meaning his companions) on daily issues ranging from everything relating to governing and even war. What the prophet did not consult his followers about was the religion itself, because it was revealed to him from God, not through negotiations. There are numerous instances of the prophet consulting his followers throughout his life.

Moreover, when the prophet died, he had not appointed a successor, he refused to, and the Koran clearly stated the following, "amrohom shura bainahum", meaning that the faithful should make their decisions based on consultation, not unilaterally.

As for Islam and democracy, the answer is yes, Islam is compatible with democracy (by democracy I am referring to the minimum criteria, which means consent of the ruled). However, Islam is not compatible with a secular democracy, but a Muslim can live in a secular society without a problem, as long as his/her freedom to practice is not restricted/violated.

As for FB's question about whether or not Islam is flexible enough to allow change over time, the answer is ABSOLUTELY! Islam WAS meant to be flexible and the Koran was meant to be a 'living document'. For example, the shari'ah law must change over time to address issues of the day. Contrary to popular belief, the shari'ah is NOT a 'divine' set of laws that are imposed on Muslims, rather they're laws created by man (Islamic scholars) according to their interpretation of the Koran and the Sunnah. In other words, as interpretations vary from one place and time to another, the shari'ah law will differ. In other words, shari'ah law is not some divine document handed to Muhammad that all Muslims must follow, but rather an interpretation of Islamic principles designed as a form of guidance for Muslims living in today's world, and therefore ARE subject to change and do evolve over time, not to mention differ based on what part of the world you live in (i.e. in Indonesia there's a different understanding/application of the shari'ah than there is in Saudi or Turkey or even Iran).

 

Again, it depends largely on which country you're talking about, Arabs/Iranians are not a one big homogeneous group. There are HUGE differences depending on which country you're talking about, and in some instances depending on which group of people you're talking about.

However, the vast majority of Muslims in the world don't marry through arranged marriage, that's a big misconception to say the least. Muslims are able to interact with the opposite gender, although within certain limitations. The whole "first base", "second base", "third base", and "hitting a homerun" doesn't apply here...there are no 'bases', because sex is completely forbidden outside of marriage.

Obviously, there are people who marry through arrangements, but that's not that common anymore, although I wouldn't say that there's anything wrong with it, but it wouldn't be the route I take. In fact, there are many non-Muslims who prefer arranged marriage, especially in societies like India where other factors come into play (the whole caste thing, for example).

 

The only time Muslims are allowed to engage in violence is in self-defense.

Of course, the U.S. has demonstrated in the past that pre-emptive attacks could be interpreted as defensive in nature, based on the situation of course.

 

Thanks. That answers my question quite nicely.

 

sure, if women that cover themselves are the same as ones locked in closets

 

is this just for the middle east or islam in general

the middle east is very diverse, from jordan to uae, all the lands have different rules and laws.

 

That's only partly true, and is the argument that Muslim apologists make quite often. However, you can't deny that Muslims have offensively waged wars in the past, and they had religious reasons to do so. The following makes it a little more clear.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html
A related misconception to jihad is often propagated by Muslims who say that "Jihad is only for self-defense of physical borders." The Qur'an and Sunnah refute this notion categorically. As the verses cited above show, jihad is obligatory wherever there is injustice, and Muslims need not acknowledge imaginary lines around the earth when it comes to upholding this obligation. The Messenger of Allah (saas) has also commented on this extensively in the Sunnah. From the study of the Sunnah called Sahih Bukhari, we find that,

[4:52:65] Narrated Abu Musa: A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."
Hence, the Creator obligates us to fight wherever people are being grossly deprived of freely hearing or practicing the Message of Allah as contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Sayyed Qutb, a famous Muslim scholar eloquently discusses the notion of jihad and self-defense in his book Milestones,

"If we insist on calling Islamic jihad a defensive movement, then we must change the meaning of the word `defense' and mean by it `defense of man' against all those elements which limit his freedom. These elements take the form of beliefs and concepts, as well as of political systems, based on economic, racial, or class distinction."

 

The notion that Islam oppresses women is completley false, rather Islam LIBERATES women. What it comes to, is how you define liberation. Before you make a claim as serious as that, do your homework, figure out why there are millions of Muslim women around the globe who choose to live the Islamic way of life. I HIGHLY recommend you read the following article.

http://www.islamonline.net/English/family/2005/03/article01.shtml

Women in Islam: Oppression or Liberation?

By Aisha Tahira Stacey**
March 7, 2005



For centuries, Muslim women in all corners of the world have been aware of the liberation that is achieved by wearing a scarf or hijab. Current world events have once again brought the issue of women's liberation in Islam to the forefront of people's minds.

Can a Woman Wearing a Scarf Be Liberated?

Can a religion that considers morality to be a part of faith clearly define the equality of men and women and their rights and responsibilities?

The answer is yes. In a day and age when the basic tenants of Islam are being questioned by Muslim and non-Muslim alike, we must be cautious when evaluating Islam.

The picture that is painted by the media is biased and unsubstantiated. The impression that some Muslims give to the world is often not a true reflection of the religion that is the completion of all religions. Islam, the religion for all people, in all places, and all times takes the equality of men and women very seriously. It sees the liberation of women as essential and considers modesty, good character, and manners to be the way to achieve such liberation.

Too often, the image of a covered woman is used to represent what much of the world views as oppression. Her very existence is described in terms that convey ignorance and unhappiness. Words like “beaten,” “repressed,” and “oppressed” are bandied about by the Western media in a desperate attempt to convince the readers that women in Islam have no rights. Descriptive and intrinsically oppressive terms such as “shrouded” and “shackled” are used to portray an image of women who have no minds and who are the slaves or possessions of their husbands and fathers. In the 19th century, T. E. Lawrence described women in Arabia as “death taking a walk,” and from that time forward, the true status of women in Islam has been shrouded by mystery. The truth about women and Islam is far from this melodramatic portrayal.

Over 1,400 years ago, Islam raised the status of women from a position of oppression to one of liberation and equality. In an era when women were considered possessions, Islam restored women to a position of dignity.

In order to gain a true insight into the real and lasting liberation that Islam guarantees women, we must first examine the concept of liberation as viewed by the West. In Western countries where liberation encompasses unlimited freedom, women are actually finding themselves living lives that are unsatisfying and meaningless. In their quest for liberation, they have abandoned the ideals of morality and stability and found themselves in marriages and families that bear little resemblance to real life.

What is liberating about working all day and coming home at night to the housework? What is liberating about having babies who at six weeks old can be deposited in childcare centers to learn their behavior and morality from strangers?

Girls as young as 6 years old have been diagnosed with eating disorders, teenage pregnancy is rampant, and women who choose to stay at home to raise their families are viewed as old fashioned or unemployable.

Yes! Women in the West are free to choose: to choose which of twenty different brands of lipstick to wear, to choose their own career path so they are independent and capable. Yes!

Women in the West are liberated: liberated to the point that they are no longer free to choose the life that is natural for them. They are free only to choose from the selection of consumer goods offered to them by their masters. The so-called liberated women of the West have become slaves. Slaves to the economic system, slaves to the fashion and beauty industries, and slaves to a society that views them as brainless machines, taught to look desirable, earn money, and shop. Even the career woman who has managed to push her way through the glass ceiling is a slave to the consumer society, which requires her to reside in a spacious house, wear only the latest designer clothes, drive a luxurious car, and educate her children at the most exclusive and expensive schools.

Is This Liberation?


The natural inclination of women is to please, comfort, and support their men, their husbands, fathers, brothers, or sons. The natural inclination of men is to protect, support, and provide for the women lawfully in their lives—wives, mothers, sisters, and daughters. Islam, the only true religion and infallible guide to life, requires that we follow such natural inclinations. It allows us to abandon ideas that are intrinsically foreign to human nature and supports us in developing and sustaining natural family relationships that spread out to form part of the wider Muslim community.

A Muslim woman knows her place in society and knows her place in the family infrastructure. Her deen (religion) is her first priority; therefore, her role is clear-cut and defined. A Muslim woman, far from being oppressed, is a woman who is liberated in the true sense of the word. She is a slave to no man or to any economic system; rather, she is the slave of Allah. Islam clearly defines women’s rights and responsibilities spiritually, socially, and economically. Islam’s clear-cut guidelines are empowering; they raise women to a natural and revered position both in their families and in the eyes of the Muslim Ummah.

Women in Islam have no need to protest and demonstrate for equal rights. They have no need to live their lives aimlessly acquiring possessions and money. With the perfection of Islam as the natural and only true religion came the undeniable fact that women and men are equal, partners and protectors of one another.

[So their Lord accepted from them (their supplication and answered them), "Never will I allow to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female. You are (members) of one another, so those who emigrated or were driven out from their homes, and suffered harm in MY cause, and were fought and were killed (in my cause) verily, I will expiate from them their evil deeds and admit them into gardens under which rivers flow; a reward from Allah, and with Allah is the best rewards.] (Aal `Imran 3:195)

[And whoever does righteous good deeds, male or female, and is a true believer in the Oneness of Allah, such will enter paradise and not the least injustice, even to the size of a speck on the back of a date stone, will be done to them.] (An-Nisaa’ 4:124)

Women in Islam have the right to own property, to control their own money or money that they earn, to buy and sell, and to give gifts and charity. They have formal rights of inheritance. They have the right to an education; seeking and acquiring knowledge is an obligation on all Muslims, male or female. Married Muslim women are completely free from the obligation of supporting and maintaining the family.

They are in no way forced into marriage, but have the right to accept or refuse a proposal as they see fit. Women in Islam have the right to divorce if it becomes necessary, but they also have the right to save their marriages.

Islam teaches that the family is the core of society. In Western cultures, the fabric of society is being torn apart by the breakdown of the family unit. It is in these crumbling communities that the call for the liberation of women arises. It seems to be a misguided and feeble attempt to find a path of security and safety. Such security is available only when the human being turns back to God and accepts the role for which he or she was created.

Liberation means freedom, but not the freedom to do as one pleases. Freedom must never be at the expense of oneself or of the wider community. When a woman fulfills the role for which she was created, not only is she liberated but she is empowered.

The modestly dressed or covered woman you see in the street is liberated. She is liberated from the shackles that have tied the feet of her Western sisters. She is liberated from the economic slavery of the West and she is liberated from the necessity of managing a house and family without the support of her husband or the help of a wider community. She lives her life based on divine guidelines; her life is filled with peace, happiness, and strength. She is not afraid of the world, but rather embraces its tests and trials with patience and fortitude, secure in the fact that true liberation is only achieved by full and willing submission to the natural order of the universe.

Oppression is not defined by a piece of material, but rather by a sickening of the heart and a weakening of the mind. Oppression grows in a society that is crumbling because its members have lost sight of the true purpose of their existence. Liberation arises and takes root in a society that is just, cohesive, and based on natural order and divine guidelines. Islam is such a society. A Muslim woman is liberated.

 

I know for a fact that in the past Muslims did engage in offensive wars, that doesn't mean that it's theologically permissible.

I guess what I should have said is that Muslims are not allowed to commit transgressions.

 

Say I meet a girl named Jasmine in Saudi Arabia. How would I go about dating her? Do I need to ask her parents for permission? Or am I out of luck because I'm a foreigner? Does pretending to be Canadian help?

 

Saudi is on the extreme end of things, so you would be out of luck, for the most part. You'ld have to do it behind her parents' back and she would have to oblige you, and even then you both can't be seen together in public (if you're in Saudi, that is).

Why, do you like a girl named Jasmine in Saudi? Did you meet her on Paltalk or something?

 

i think that depends on her...not everyone is the same

hell I just met this girl named..well i dont remember her or know her name..she's a wild woman and she's from Saudi Arabia

 

Islam is not immune to materialism, desire, greed etc. That is quite evident. I think it is a great generalization to say all women in Islam are liberation and all women in the "west" are not. That is ridiculous.

I do agree that "oppression is not defined by a piece of material" but it is also not defined by the absence of it. But I think completely covering a human being is completely unnatural and backwards. It's like poisoning all the food so that nobody will steal it, rather than addressing and understanding the nature of desire itself. True liberation comes from your own mind, not from the clothes you wear or do not.

I see the positives in this argument, but I see negatives too. I do see an aspect of attachment and control.

 

That article on women in Islam had a very 1984 feel to it. Freedom is Slavery.

 

That article on "women in islam" might have been the worst peice I've ever read. The slippery slopes are especially humorous: women in the west are opressed because they have to work all day.

I think it's apologists like this that really cause problems for Islam. It needs to be recognized and accepted that women ARE opressed in the Muslim world. However, Islam is not the opressor but rather cultural norms which have found themselves influencing society. At the time of Islam's advent, it DID liberate women - never before were women given the right to own property, and many divorce/dowry laws gave women unprecedented rights. The issue of polgyamy is also quite paradoxical in that in pre-Islamic Arabia, men would regularly marry upwards of ten wives or fornicate promiscuitively often impregnating women and not supporting the child rearing. The limit was set to 4 wives as one might have been too drastic a measure. Furthermore, tribal warfare was abundant at that time leaving many women without a caretaker.

 

Do you really not see how having to work all day and carry on the responsibilites of being a wife and mother take away from the natural role of women in society and at home? To me, that makes a lot of sense.

This article did not deny that some women in the Muslim world are oppressed, rather it focused on the misconception that Islam oppresses women. You are right in saying cultural norms negatively influence society in this way, but the oppression is not a part of our religious teachings.

 

I think it is obvious that misunderstandings about how the "other side" lives is just as common on both sides of the equation.

From the author's viewpoint, western women that make the choice to have a career and acquire goodies are pathetic, empty souls who are forced to do so against their wills.....which as we all know, is not the case in a majority of instances.

They see how we live as unnatural...while we find their ideas about gender roles to be quaint and old-fashioned.

Looks like we arent the only folks that need education about how the other culture lives\feels.

maybe one day understanding between the cultures will occur....or maybe that is just my pollyannish side speaking

 

Yeah, women should be barefoot in the kitchen cooking dinner and making babies.

 

I think there are much better ways to go about addressing the issue of opression in the Muslim world than to make the same sweeping generalizations from the other side. The author is guilty of the same crime that he is denouncing. And really, the whole idea about women in the west being opressed because they work outside the home - you're not seriously defending that with a straight face, are you?

The bottom line is that it comes down to culture. Muslim women are opressed. Hindu women are opressed. Sikh women are opressed. Treatment of all women in the Eastern hemisphere leaves something to be desired. It has nothing to do with Islam - don't buy into the hype. That's just a political tool. Noone really gives a rat's ass that honor killings take place all over the Indian subcontinent or that genital mutilation takes place in tribal nonmuslim Africa. Funny that all you heard about was the treatment of women under the Taliban regime yet now that they are no longer in power, the treatment is the same, but you don't hear anything. It's not in our interests anymore because we can't paint Islam as the opressor.

 

I've only had the chance to skim this thread but most of the issues raised here seem to deal with politics and cultures in particular Islamic countries rather than Islam in general.