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athleticism vs fundamentals: which is more successful?

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by Charvo, Mar 9, 2004.

  1. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    I love it when people say so and so is athletic "for his size." Well, why not say someone is athletic "for his speed," or "for his jumping ability" or "for his skin color" or "for his age" and so on.

    What is athleticism anyway?
     
  2. hitman1900

    hitman1900 Member

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    I think this is pretty true. Karl Malone isn't as athletic as he used to be but he can still shoot the ball. Anyways, as someone said before, you have to have good mix of athleticism and fundamentals, but somewhere along the line u need the smarts to know how to use both to their full potential i.e. Jordan and Hakeem. The greatest ballers in the world knew how to use both to their advantage.
     
  3. Charvo

    Charvo Member

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    I just know the Jazz have a bunch of stiffs besides Kirilenko, and they are in a fight for a playoff spot ahead of teams like the Clippers and Suns who have some of the most athletic players in the league. It could be all Jerry Sloan, but I don't think Jerry Sloan and Mike Dunleavy are at far extremes in terms of being able coach. Sloan is better, but it's not like Dunleavy is a dumbass. Sloan picked guys to play on his team who might have already had learned the fundamentals of winning basketball before going to the Jazz, or he got guys who were apt to learn basketball fundamentals very easily. This is why I would like to see the Rockets draft a senior point guard coming out of a good college program. They will be available in the 2nd round. Maybe Charlie Ward comes to the Rockets. It could be Brent Barry. Those guys seem to have a sound foundation in knowing how to play basketball with their limited physical skills.
     
  4. Charvo

    Charvo Member

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    If anyone wants to see a fundamental point guard who can shoot the lights out, just watch the Kings with Bibby. Mike Fratello was raving about Bibby saying he had limited physical skills but was able to shoot like a madman. Shooting is the most important fundamental of all.

    Grizzlies were crazy to trade him. They would be competing for a title with him.
     
  5. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Smart players can stick around longer, but the Superstar players are those that combine smarts, athleticism, and competitivness.

    DD
     
  6. MemphisX

    MemphisX Member

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    Hmmm...IMO Yao is the most athletic player I have seen at his height.

    Barkley was probaly one of the greatest athletes in NBA history.

    Sabonis was pretty athletic before his wheels cam off.

    Magic unathletic? He was 6'9 and played PG for the one of the fastest teams in NBA history.

    Dirk is probaly very athletic when you consider he is 7 feet tall and Peja is 6'10 so he has to be an above avergae athlete.
     
  7. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    an easy way to dismiss someone you don't like who does well

    i.e. . . . He relies on athleticism . . but he has no basketball IQ [/]

    Rocket River
     
  8. Beck

    Beck Member

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    If you are a heisman trophy winning QB and an NBA point guard, I wouldn't say you have limited physical skills.

    I guess Brent Barry won the slam dunk contest with limited physic skills too.
     
  9. Charvo

    Charvo Member

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    At their current age, they are dependent more on their fundamentals than their athleticism. They aren't youngsters anymore.
     
  10. Bailey

    Bailey Veteran Member

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    Barkley not athletic? Maybe not towards the end of his career, but gosh, his early years in the league...
     
  11. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Bill Willoughby & Chris Anderson come to mind.

    DD
     
  12. 101 6 7

    101 6 7 Member

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    Athletic = Robinson, Garnett

    Fundamentals = Olajuwon, Duncan

    Let the rings do the talking
     
  13. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    Yeah, Olajuwon has no athletecism. Actually, your correct point would be its a combination of both that's most successful. Michael Jordan anyone?
     
  14. acizlan

    acizlan Member

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    MJ got skills, but he was also the MOST athletic player EVER!

    (maybe that guy james white in UNC can match him in athleticism)
     
  15. shawn786

    shawn786 Member

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    Fundamentals is a must to be successful but athleticism dosnt hurt ether. When you get them both together how ever you get a MJ.
     
  16. Charvo

    Charvo Member

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    This is an excellent article concerning a possible seachange in a return to fundamentals due to the zone defense rules.

    http://www.yaleherald.com/archive/xxxi/2001.04.13/sports/p27elitorial.html

    Time for a change
    BY DARCY WIECKS

    With a new champion crowned just last week, the 2001 college basketball season has sadly come to an end—undoubtedly a disappointing time every year for a true basketball fan. Yes, I'm differentiating between college basketball and the one-on-one, drive-to-the-hoop style of the NBA. The NBA has also recognized the prevalence of this isolation play and voted on Wed., Apr. 12 for a new set of rules that includes four major changes: implementing a three-second rule on defense, giving teams just eight seconds (currently 10 seconds) to cross midcourt, redefining the term "incidental contact" to decrease the number of touch fouls called, and ridding the league of illegal defense.

    The rule changes should make NBA basketball faster.

    Jerry Colangelo, owner of the Phoenix Suns and head of the commission on the rule changes, emphasized the league's desire to encourage scoring, fast breaks, and full-court defense. "We want to quicken the game," Colangelo said. While the numerical results of the poll were released, positive voted from only 20 of the 29 teams had been required to approve the change.

    So what do these changes mean for the NBA? The end of illegal defense will allow teams to play zones, which would eliminate the one-on-one offense that allows strong offensive players to score easily. Zone defense will encourage jump shots and team offense. By allowing just eight seconds to cross mid-court, defenses will be encouraged to press, forcing turnovers as guards rush to move the ball up the court.

    With NBA scoring averages down about three points per game in the last decade, it comes as no surprise that the league would adjust the rules to increase scoring. But will it really help? Does the NBA still have quality outside shooters who will be able to drain jump shots when play inside the key is hindered by the new zone defense? Many critics have speculated that the rule will decrease scoring further, as the NBA has shifted its play to highlight the abilities of strong individuals who can take the ball one-on-one against virtually any defender in the league. Kevin Loughery, former NBA player and columnist for CNNSI, commented that the league lacks "pure shooters" who will benefit from the "jump-shooting contest" that NBA basketball will supposedly become.

    Perhaps Loughery is right—the rule change will encourage shooting. But would a return to the basics be a negative change for NBA basketball? The zone defense promotes the basketball player as an all-around athlete with strong fundamentals, as opposed to a tall player who can make short jumpers, layups, and dunks—obviously not the most challenging shots in the game when the basket is a mere two feet away and players can practically reach the backboard without jumping.

    Both NBA rookies and current league leaders in field goal percentage illustrate the current problem in the NBA. DerMarr Johnson and Jamal Crawford, the sixth and eighth picks respectively in the 2000 NBA Draft, have shooting percentages below 40 percent—Johnson's is a dismal 38 percent and Crawford's an even worse 33 percent. Of the top 10 leaders in field goal percentage, eight are forwards or centers over 6'7", and legendary guard and sharpshooter John Stockton is the only player listed solely as a guard—he's also the only one shorter than 6'5". I don't deny that Shaquille O'Neal, the overall leader in field goal percentage, is a talented basketball player. However, one would be pressed to prove that his 7'1" stature and proximity to the basket by nature of his position don't contribute to his 57 percent average and his consistent ability to put the ball in the hoop.

    Don't get me wrong—I love watching players dribble past two defenders to dunk, but I also value strong perimeter shooting, the fast break, and watching a successful full-court press. As Duke topped Arizona in the NCAA Championship game, Mike Dunleavy '03 led the team on offense with 21 points, which included a perfect demonstration of what the NBA hopes to achieve with this rule change: three three-pointers in a row that electrified the crowd, provided Duke with a lead that the Wildcats could not overcome, and demonstrated the importance of outside shooting.
     
  17. Charvo

    Charvo Member

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    This above article was written awhile back, but look at the Kings. Their management had the foresight to acknowledge a significant change in the NBA had happened, so they built a roster that could benefit from that change rather than fight it. Should someone get a athletic dunker or a dead-eye shooter in the draft? I'd rather take Peja than Shawn Marion.
     
  18. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    OK, I waited so long and still nobody really answered my request for definitions. I don't have definitions either. But let me give you an analogy.

    Athleticism is the tools. Fundamentals are the skills to use the tools. A master handy man can do very little if he doesn't have adequate tools. But he can do more things with a plain screwdriver than an idiot like myself with a power drill.

    And if the master handy man has all the tools he wants. . . the sky's the limit!
     
  19. Huricane

    Huricane Member

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    I don't post much, but here are my two cents.

    I think we are missing two ingredients.

    1.) It is called a passion for winning.
    2.) And even more important, a hatred of losing.

    Some players have a passion for winning, and will play their heart out, and they will win a-lot of games. Think Kevin Garnet's team.

    There are few players I can think of that hate losing absolutely more than anything else. They will sacrifice and do whatever it takes to win, or, do whatever it takes to not lose. Three that come to mind are:
    Bird.
    Isaiah.
    and Jordan.

    Now players that win at the highest levels are always going to be fundamentally sound. I don't think anyone will say Bird, Isaiah or Jordan was not fundamentally sound. At the same time, I don't think anyone will say Bird was the most athletic guy in the league, or even or his own team.

    There are two many players in this league that are in this league because they have talent or potential next to there names. Think Derrick Coleman. Think Eddie Griffin. People said Derrick was the next coming of Barkley in a bigger, stronger body. He never won anything in the NBA. Hearing the word potential drives me crazy. A-lot of people like Stomile Swift, but I would rather have Shane Battier. Stomile=Potential, Shane=Results.

    If you had to compare the two, who had more talent, Bird or Jordon? So why couldn’t Jordon get past the Celtics or the Pistons in his first few years in the league?

    When Jordan first came into this league, he scored a-lot of points, and his team made the playoffs, but never went anywhere. He would score 40 a night easily. What was wrong? (Kinda sounds like Kevin Garnet and the Timberwolves). Jordan scored a-lot of points, and tried to win by himself. He didn’t not trust or defer to his teammates. He didn’t involve his teammates. He would win, but not in the playoffs. They said it was because the Jordon of the 80’s was selfish. I think the more talented players try to win by themselves, and this is especially true of younger players. As they have been in the league a few years, they gain experience, become more fundamentally sound, and involve their teammates. I think this is true of Little Stevie. He is such a talented player, and I know a lot of posters on this board get extremely frustrated when they don’t see him passing to his open teammates. (Especially Yao.) Based on the talent the rockets have, we all know there are no limits as to how far they can go. I think Steve is starting to realize that he can’t win on his own, and is now starting to grow and involve his teammates more.

    To be able to get to the NBA, you have to some level of physical talent. (Exceptions, Shawn Bradley and Manute Bol).

    Fundamentally sound players know when and how to pass the ball. All the great teams had a go to guy, but they always passed the ball around and involved everyone. Think Celtics, Lakers in the 80’s, and the Bulls. One of the biggest criticisms of the Rockets in 94 and 95 was they passed the ball around to much (Except Vernon.)

    Basically, players and teams that want to win at the Highest level (or don't want to lose in the playoffs) will be fundamentally sound. Fundamentally sound players know when and how to pass the ball. You don’t have to be gifted physically, but it sure does help.
     
  20. Charvo

    Charvo Member

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    After watching the Suns game, I'm putting Steve Francis in the athlete with no fundamentals category. The guy can't break a press which all good guards learn in college. He can't make an outside shot which forced him to fight for layups against Amare and Shawn Marion's outstretched arms. That's just nuts. Making an outside shot is the single most important fundamental in basketball in my opinion.
     

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