That is a proscription to not pray for the purposes of appearances. It is a proscription to make it genuine. Nothing more.
To answer the original question posed by the OP... MOST ATHEISTS ARE AGNOSTIC This means they lack a belief in god/gods (atheist) but do not claim to know for sure (agnostic). Rejecting someone else's unverifiable belief and reserving judgement until sufficient evidence is available takes exactly zero "faith". Non-belief is simply the default position, and if you disagree with that then I suppose you believe I've got a 2-ton fire-breathing dragon living in my garage because I say so. I mean, I'd just show you, but it's invisible and you can't touch it.
Who said anything about that, strawman? Name what it is that is trumping your Constitutional rights. I don't know why you're projecting and trying to categorize what I'm saying rather than giving a decent reply. You went on a tangent a few posts before about the nativity scene, except it really has no bearing of what Christmas is unless you think giving Jesus a birthday party is your way of proving that you're a red blooded Christian. More like "You shall have no other Gods before me." I don't know why you're being obtuse since I referred to it. I don't care about people praying. You seem to think religious actions is limited to praying. Maybe it's stoning a slutty wench infidel. Finding some Caananite village to destroy. Or slitting the neck of a farm animal because it was that time of the month. I'm trying to be mindful of other religions here...outside your domain of the one religion you consider with Christianity. There's helluva lot of other stuff being practiced (and I don't mean bloody or barbaric, just different) that might not be in everyone's best interests to be distracted with. I'm convulsing right now.... I don't think Christianity is any less oppressed than it was. Just because some traditions are changed in the name of diversity and tolerance doesn't mean that the message is too. There are people who risk their lives just so that they can practice in the privacy in their own homes. For the alarm that the message or the faith as a whole is unravelling because of liberal elements or government litigation, I'd say that's more of the symptom rather than the cause. The cause is that some people feel entitled to the fruits people before them worked really hard to get. But it's not about fighting for those traditions back, but more about reigniting what's inside and using yourself as an example to your faith. Prayer, nativity scenes, holiday...they're symbolic gestures that doesn't impact anything to the greater hurt going on around the world.
It does not. I have no discomfort with any religions or non-religion. Heck, I marry a devoted Catholic and have a statue of Mary in my living room. Sound like gaining your religion is very important for you. Not everyone need to go through that path. Open thoughtful thinking is possible in all forms, religious or not. Take it however you like, but being reflexive and not very open to other possibilities is still very much there in you I'm afraid, just with a very different and strong point of view.
Why not? Won't god protect them? And for those that are not? Why not allow for atheist/humanist chaplains? From here: 0.5% self-identified as atheist or agnostic. While this may seem low, The Atheist religious preference was ahead of all responses except Christian or undetermined groups. The largest individual religious preference was No Religious Preference (see note below) at nearly 23% of the military. “Unknown” was the fifth-largest at 6.2%. After Twelve Christian selections (including two for no denomination), Atheist is in the #15 position. 88 different religious preferences, including 73 Christian denominations and all non-Christian denominations, fall below Atheist. Do you think it's really fine and dandy to support only some of the troops in this way? Do you support chaplains for each and every faith? Why not? Yay, we finally agree on something, however if I'm being honest, I think the tax exempt status should be revoked altogether.
Actually, they do. I have hundreds of notes and emails indicating this. I'll happily scan and email them to you if you wish. If it were a mere moment that would be fine, however in Texas it's a full minute, every day, in the same class. That minute part seemed to have escaped you since you still used the word moment. Last year we were on a block schedule with 90 minute classes. That minute of silence literally lasted two class periods throughout the year. This year we are on an 8 period day and it will last four classes. We're pressed for time to impart knowledge as it is. There is plenty of personal time for them to observe their minute/hour/moment of silence. Heaven forbid I want to spend time actually educating kids. As for your kids being in private school, good for you. Hope they learn some real science there. Most of my kids that come from private schools have really, really poor science backgrounds, although they are strong in the humanities. Choices, I suppose. We're going to have to disagree here, but fortunately the supreme court agrees with me. The Anderson County Courthouse in Florida has signs that read, "In God We Trust" above the doors of the courthouse entrances. As a non-christian I'm not sure I'd feel like I was getting a fair shake in that courthouse and I'm sure others agree. In fact, a Cherokee man has sued for that very reason. It honestly baffles me that you can't grasp the fact that religious iconography for one particular religion in a government building can be seen as endorsing that religion.
It's a winter break now. Didn't you get the memo? I'll happily celebrate any of the pagan holidays the christians co-opted for the winter solstice and have my pagan yule log keeping me nice and warm. As for first amendment rights in schools, maybe you should look at the supreme court's decisions on it (Tinker, Fraser, Hazelwood, etc.).
Somehow this thread turned into "War on Christmas" fallacy and White Anglo-Saxon Protestant persecution. Maybe you should try spending Diwali with Hindus, Eid al-Fatir with Muslims or Yom Kippur with Jews in Houston to understand what it feels like to actually be a religious minority on an important religious holiday. Or better yet, Christmas in Tel Aviv. As you and your family feel festive and/or spiritual, the rest of the city is going to work and hitting the bars afterwards like any other day. Christmas is a public holiday in the US, so that sort of makes your point moot. Since the United States isn't a theocracy, it is in fact a secular holiday, at least in legal principle. Where I live it isn't, and it's a normal workday. It's an invention of the Church to replace Saturnalia for Christian converts. Much of it's pagentry comes from there and other European pagan traditions common around the winter solstice and isn't particularly Christian (Santa, gifts, advent calenders, yule logs, etc). There's no mention in the New Testament of what day Jesus was born. Dec 25 was chosen by Church leaders for the convenient crossover with pagan rites. Your argument for the existence of any god or gods rests on tired and weak premise. Even in the highly improbable event that there is a higher power in the universe, the liklihood that it corresponds to a human-made religion's exceptionalism are still worse odds than Vanuatu winning the World Cup. I not going to bet on that just because I can't "prove" that Vanuatu won't win a World Cup one day. That isn't to say that one should abandon dear cultural practices, like Passover seders or Christmas trees, but people should be free to experience them in whatever secular observance they want to, and the government has no business intervening in that, especially not a government codified by a Constitution written into law by deists and freethinkers.
I am not restricting anyone's freedom - I am just asking that my time and tax dollars not get used to support someone's religion. That's stated in the constitution. You can't force me to sit there while people pray in a public setting. Not a court room, or a school, or the DMV. You can do it if it's a private event. Great! And in those situations, I am forced to wait and twiddle my thumbs in silent respect for others while they do their thing. But it is UNCOMFORTABLE. I shouldn't be exposed to that in the public setting. Why do you have to force religion into the public sector? I have not wrong with the site of it ON PRIVATE PROPERTY. You are trying to tell me what I think - and it's is condescending and small minded of you to do so - not in the spirit of respectful debate. My insecurities? WTF? You're going off the range now. It is fantastic logic. I can't believe you'd even try to compare someone with a handicap to religious zealots. 2 minutes a day X 90 days = 3 hours - that's pretty large investment. Those students can pray before class by getting there early. Yes, thank goodness it is there to stop you from taking away my rights. I think your religion has blinded you and you have no clue what you are talking about. Everything I am saying is backed by constitutional scholars - including Christian ones. There are many Christians who support my position. There are moderates who support my position - heck most here do not even think I am a liberal. The fact that you have to toss these bombs and condescending remarks demonstrate your own intolerance and lack of an ability to understand the other side. I am happy to end this discussion with you here - it has proven to be a complete waste of everyone's time.
Really? I've only said it about a dozen times, and you need me to say it again? You said: I tend to react negatively when people feel the need to express their piety at a public arena through superficially symbolic gestures. I pointed out that this is merely an irrational reaction to seeing others pray. It's as decent a reply as it deserves. Ah, so Christmas has nothing to do with celebrating the birth of Christ. OK. (this is just getting r****ded, BTW) And as I said to Sweet Lou, when a judge makes that the basis of a legal decision and not statutory law, wake me up and I will join you in protest. Until then you have no evidence that it is an endorsement or has any bearing on the workings of the courthouse or justice system. Just as long as you don't have to see it, right? See above... Let me know when you see this in our country, I'll join you in protest. Let me know when you see this in our country, I'll join you in protest. I think you're going to need a muslim to answer this one. Correct me if I am wrong, but members of those other religions still have to obey the laws of this country, no? I am pretty sure that stoning an infidel wench or destroying someone's village would be prohibited, correct? (don't know about the halal stuff...) Have you witnessed these acts in this country? Just curious. Ah, so the vampires and crosses was off, then. More like the effect a cross had in The Exorcist, then? Well, I'd say we are less oppressed than we were in the days of the puritans... This is very confusing. Are you saying that Christianity has not changed? This makes no sense. Maybe I'm just dumb. Rephrase it please (I understand it was the middle of the night...).
I've said repeatedly - whatever floats your boat. I think my first post I mentioned that the Great Commission tells us to go forth and convert as many as possible, but I don't really play that game. So, whatever floats your boat. I am not going to judge a person solely based upon their faith, or lack of it. That's between that person and God as I see it.
You do know that most historical evidence indicates that Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December but probably in Spring. Christmas from it's start has been a coopting of the Roman Holiday Saturnalia and other Pagan winter solstice celebrations. Also you are leaving out that half of Christmas break is a celebration of secular New Year.
Just to add to my above post my understanding of Christianity is that Easter should be a much more important holiday as that commemorates the crucifixtion and resurrection which is the central mystery of Christianity. To my knowledge though most public schools no longer celebrate Easter and Spring Break is a different time than Easter.
I am not asking that your time and tax dollars go towards supporting someone else's religion. Just that allowances are made for their practice, as mandated by the First Amendment. No, it's not. Do I need to keep quoting it? Please re-read it and then show me where it's stated in the Constitution. Crosses and vampires, again. You can't stop someone from exercising their religious preference. I've got the Constitution on my side. You have... irrational disgust. The fact that it makes you uncomfortable is YOUR problem. If you truly believe as you say then an appropriate reaction to witnessing others praying would be along the lines of "Wow, look at those dumba$$es, what a waste of time. Whatever." Instead, it is an irrational fear. What about it do you fear? I am curious. Why do you want to force it into the closet? You just said it makes you uncomfortable. Your words. What about others praying are you afraid of? I am using your words. Totally still on the range. Ah, so anyone who prays is a zealot, now? OK. And your proposition that we should make accommodations for the handicapped but not for those expressing their constitutionally protected right to freedom of exercise of religion is ridiculously hypocritical. You're right, three hours out of the year. Torture! How will they ever learn anything now?!? LOL, no one is taking away your rights. You are trying to use it to take away others' rights - natural born / Gog-given rights that you have no power to take away. I think you have no idea what I am talking about. I base my assessment of the thinking behind the writing of the Constitution on writings penned by the Founders. Read the Declaration. Try out the Federalist Papers for some interesting reading (particularly #39, #41, #84 - Hamilton didn't want a Bill of Rights, BTW). Are you saying that you do not believe that the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights are limiting documents? If not, then what are they? Do we derive our rights from them? Uh, hardly. Ah, I'm the one who's being condescending, eh? OK. I will agree that it has likely been a waste of time. As if anything will ever be solved here...
Yes, I know. December 25 is almost certainly not His actual birthday. Does it matter? Not really. It's the date that society has chosen - for hundreds of years - to celebrate His birth. Can we please stop pretending that the two are mutually exclusive? They aren't. As for celebrating the New Year, I have generally gotten two days off for that. I never mentioned it because it's not relevant to this discussion.
Easter is a much more significant holiday than Christmas. But the bounty is not nearly as great, so it's not generally as commercial a holiday as Christmas... It also falls on a Sunday, so schools have no need to make accommodations for it. Of course, many private schools give students Good Friday off.
Just wait'll he finds out that the Christ character is plagiarized from other god myths that came long before.
I don't need anything to float my boat. While I allow anything to float my boat. I don't need anything in public school to have my boat floated while I would allow anything there as well within reason. It seems you need something in public school to have your boat floated. It's really not that necessary, but whatever.
