I don't have any problem with nativity scenes on PRIVATE land. But if I am funding PUBLIC land, I don't want my dollars to go to any particular religion unless it is being used for a non-religious reason (feeding homeless people). If a kid wants to pray in school in plain sight of anyone - that's fine. But the school should not stop educating people and make them wait and twiddle their thumbs so the kid can pray. The school is not a religious institution, it's a place for public education, and therefore should be used as such. If someone is there to learn, not wait for others to pray. They should do it on THEIR time, not everyone elses, that's all. If they want to do it between classes - get to class early so they can pray - that's totally fine. But to interrupt class for a moment of silence isn't right. If a judge wants to put the 10 commandments in his office that's fine. If he wants to put it in the courtroom - it's not. You know why? Because it's not his courtroom. The same reason you can't post advertisements for your kids hockey game in the court room. First Amendment doesn't mean you can put up any sign or symbol wherever you want. Doesn't mean you can yell fire in a theatre. Doesn't mean you can just put whatever you want wherever. Just means you have a right to express yourself, but not any old way you want. You still have to respect the rights of others and yes, follow the rule of law which is that the gov't can not be seen endorsing any religion - and putting the 10 commandments up in a courtroom is an endorsement.
Major - some reading: http://blog.heritage.org/2012/10/10/religious-freedom-restrictions-on-the-rise-even-in-the-u-s// http://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/rfp/essays/canary-in-the-coal-mine-mounting-religious-restrictions-in-europe (not us, I know, but we are following in their fototsteps) http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-03-22/national/37919153_1_high-school-students-student-expression-moines-independent-school-district http://www.justice.gov/crt/spec_topics/religiousdiscrimination/westfield.php http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/school-prayer-restrictions-provoke-new-legislation-in-florida/1080736 http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/06/25/today-marks-the-50th-anniversary-of-the-prayer-ban-in-public-schools-heres-the-history/ So... I have a question. How soon until we start talking about removing all religion from the military? Closing down base churches/chapels - they're on govt property. Ending the Chaplain program - they are official US govt employees, after all. And while we're at it, when do we get rid of chapels in state hospital, and the clergy who staff them? Why stop with schools?
It's freaking Christmas, you Grinch. I have no idea what job you do, but you should have to work on Christmas. Well then that student should use his/her quiet time to get ahead on their classwork, no? Agreed. But they still don't have the right to restrict religious expression. So now, you're not even cool with the moment of silence? They are obligated by the First Amendment to not restrict religious practice, and the moment of silence allows the school to fulfill that obligation in a way that does not endorse anything. It's not his office, either. What, he owns the office? Like the bench and the courtroom he is simply occupying it while working. And anyway, ads for a kids hockey game were not one of the guiding principles guiding the historical establishment of Judeo-Christian legal thought. Try again. First Amendment isn't about letting people do or not do something. Liberals have never had a good grasp of what the Constitution and particularly the Bill of Rights are... The First Amendment is a *restriction* on what the government is allowed to do. As are all of the Amendments. They are articles limiting the power and scope of the government. Read the First Amendment carefully. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Congress shall make no law... This Amendment - as do all of the Amendments - apply to the government, not to the people. It is an instruction to the government in what they are *not* allowed to do. Of course not, because yelling fire in a theater represents an immediate danger to those inside. Prayer presents no such risk. Yes, because a nativity scene is just so... offensive, right? I mean, a newborn baby in a manger, representing hope for salvation, it's just so ghastly, right? But you don't? When the judge starts basing his decisions on the 10 Commandments and not on current statute as he is supposed to then wake me up and I will join you in protest. Until then, no, it's not an endorsement. It's a placard.
Are we derailed yet? I can't tell. We're still on the same general topic but I feel the focus shifting...
You honestly don't think that having religious symbols, etc. on public, government owned property violates the establishment clause? Fortunately the supreme court disagrees with you. Setting up these symbols of christianity on public, tax-supported property is most certainly endorsing a religion. You have admitted that most people would lose their minds if muslim symbols (or any other religion) were put up in their place, which should tell you something about how these things are perceived. Removing religion from the military doesn't sound like a bad idea, especially since the House voted to block atheist chaplains. I'm all for getting rid of chapels, clergy, etc. if they're paid for by my taxes. Let private churches handle that sort of thing. While we're at it, let's get rid of the tax exempt status for any church that endorses political candidates or parties.
I'm not cool with it. I've been teaching for over 15 years and we lose entire class periods of instruction to the minute (yes, minute) of silence over the course of a year. It's a waste of time. If a kid needs/wants to pray he certainly can, at any time, nobody stops them. I have muslims, christians, atheists, apatheists, unitarians, and others all mixed together in one class and nobody stops them from praying when they want to. The muslim kids can wear beards and nobody cares. Nobody is stopping these kids from practicing their religions. We don't need a minute of silence for it. What we don't want is people endorsing one religion over any of the others (or no religion). Having things like the 10 commandments, crosses, etc. on public land does just that.
Because there's assloads of other religions that would spar for equal time and there'd be atheists and non-believers that just want to watch a game without having God or politics shoved down their throats. People assume there's one Christianity...the one they follow, but those differences lie deep, especially within the South, and a simple thing as prayer won't be the only thing people will want to horn in and introduce.
Because, if its part of a team-sponsored activity, then those kids can't really choose to not "participate". But in simpler terms, I guarantee you that people would throw a fit if a satanist asked for equal time to pray after a Christian. And I'm pretty sure the school would choose to stop that. Unless the school wants to allow that, they can't really allow any prayer without favoring specific religions. You may be OK with the Satanist, but I can guarantee you a whole bunch of others would not.
What if students were to pray to Allah? Or the devil? Or tell people they don't feel like praying and think it's dumb? What should the school do about them?
I'm not sure I understand the point of these readings. One is about Europe. Two are about courts that upheld students' rights to share their religion. One is about a restriction on a teacher participating in religion, but indicates that students were/are allowed to pray. One is a ban on official school-sanctioned prayer. One is about worldwide religious freedom and has nothing do with US schools. Not a single one of these articles supports your viewpoint that kids are banned from praying in school - in fact, several directly dispute it and show courts upholding the kids' rights.
So, the churches just need to send clergy to the warzones on their own? Nice. This is exactly the sort of nonsense I am talking about. Abolish churches and Chaplains from the military and enjoy the massive clusterfark of an exodus that ensues. The large majority of US military servicemembers are religious. They will not take kindly to such action. I am OK with removing their tax exempt status if they want to advocate for political causes. Reasonable, I think.
So, you take a utilitarian point of view on it? Can't waste a second on anything not curriculum-oriented. I bet your students just love you. I must admit I have yet to hear anyone complain about the moment of silence. I will just say that the fact that people like you are teaching kids is the reason my kid attends private school. Agreed. No, it is not an endorsement. If you walk in the door of said establishment and the government official says "Do you have Jesus in your life? No? Well, let me talk about it to you..." then we are crossing a line. A cross, the 10 Commandments - those are simply inanimate objects that are easily ignored. If they are driving policy then there is a problem, if they are not then they are simply part of the landscape. Your inability to recognize that says more about you than anything else.
They can pray to whoever or whatever they want. Or not pray. Play a freaking video game of check their text messages. Most students would rather do that anyway. Point is to give them the opportunity to exercise their religious preferences. Muslim kids are supposed to pray 5 times a day. Christians are supposed to do it 3 times a day. At least one of those prayers falls within the school day. By refusing them the opportunity you are violating their rights. Taking 2 minutes out of the day is not going to set the whole class hopelessly back.
Read them again. Of course, I say that to no purpose... Every article I posted was indicative of the recent tendency of schools to overreact and err on the side of restriction. Prayer is only one issue I am talking about, under the larger topic of religious freedom as applied in a school context. Because of constant complaints by rabid atheists such as Sweet Lou the schools are forced into a defensive mode whereby in order to avoid the cost of frivolous lawsuits they end up fairly arbitrarily restricting students' 1st Amendment rights. Restricting prayer is only one way. Enforcing strict dress codes that violate religious tenets is another (see muslims and sikhs for this. Restricting students from passing out Christmas party invites was another example. Disallowing displays such as nativity scenes at freaking Christmas is another. These examples all have one thing in common: they're absurd. Really, you're not gonna let a kid hand out Christmas party invitations because it's a religious holiday? Really?!? These are KIDS. You're not going to allow a nativity scene on [Christmas?!? That is freaking r****ded. It's the general push by atheists to remove all religious exercise from public life that worries people like me. This country wasfounded upon the principle that religious expression shall not be infringed upon. We all get that the State needs to stay the hell out of the religion business. I am on the same page as you as far as that goes. But when the State restricts individual practice of such merely because it takes place on state property it is violating 1st Amendment protections. You could spend days Googling such violations. They are too numerous to post. If you are really interested (I suspect not) you can find them. But to deny the trend is disingenuous.
can that not be done during lunch? during recesses? In between classes? before classes? after classes? going to bathroom break? during ride to school? during ride home? There are plenty of opportunities for prayers. I don't see why there is necessary a need for any period dedicated for anything other than for educational purposes in public school. Not having such a dedicate time clearly does not mean you have lost your opportunity to pray.
In between classes (usually 5 minutes) is spent traveling between classes. Before classes you're going to class. After classes misses the "noon" part (for Christians). During lunch you're eating lunch. On bathroom break you're going to the bathroom. Why is sparing 1-2 minutes per day of silence where students can express themselves such a horrible concept? The school fulfills its obligation to not restrict religious expression, students who want to pray have that opportunity, and kids that don't can update their Facebook or whatever. It isn't going to bring down society.
OK. Whatever floats your boat. It's protected as well. I am a big believer in allowing competing ideas to present themselves. People will be able to see the BS for what it is and discard it if both the good and the bad are put on display. Are you saying that you have no faith in the ability of the American people to make good choices?
