Jesus claimed to be equal with God, humans are not. Jesus was without sin, humans are not. Jesus was God's only son, humans are not. Now you can argue the last as just words written by man. But on the first one, Jesus was either Lord, liar or lunitic. And we could start a whole new thread on just the resurrection of Jesus. But if you must be redeemed to live with God, how many lives can 1 sinless man save? The answer is 1. He can save himself or he can trade his life for another. But that's it - he can't trade it for 1,000,000. But how many lives can the Son of God save? How many human lives = God's only Son? The answer is infinite. He took all the sins of the world on Him. Why? Because of the Father's love for us. There is a great story about Gomer in the old testament. Hosea’s wife, Gomer, whom he married in good faith, was an adulterous woman. Three children were born to her, but they were not Hosea’s. Because of Gomer’s unfaithfulness, the prophet divorced his wife. Following the divorce, Gomer continued her adulterous life and eventually became an ordinary slave. But Hosea still loved her in spite of her unfaithfulness. To rescue her from her lovers, he sought her out and purchased her freedom. That is the picture of God and us. We have followed other gods like materializm, lust, etc. but he didn't leave us to our own slavery. He purchased us at a very steap price but sending down a normal man wasn't going to get the job done. God is a just God and he will not just let sins go but He is also a loving God and He made what has to be the easiest way for us to be redeemed. Now a person must either accept the payment or continue on their way - their choice.
I have considered Jesus to just be a non-divine prophet with a message. I have thought about it and seen it logically and rationally as far as human reason allows. Just another martyr for a cause. Someone who demonstrates love and someone who died unjustly for His message. Just a shining example of what a noble man can do for others, a light in a dark world demonstrating what we all should aspire to be- loving. And since as far as human knowledge goes we can choose to believe there might not be a 'God' then this would fit perfectly. But Jesus statements in the Bible run counter to this reasoning. Consider these words- While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matt. 26:26...) He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. (Luke 24:46...) Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking themselves, "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? (Mark 2:6...) Jesus came to die for our sins. To take our punishment upon Himself, on our behalf. The righteous Son taking the just retribution for the unrighteous. If there is no justice Jesus died in vain. If he is not the divine Son of God then he is just a martyr and His death could not be sufficient payment for the sins of the whole world. If we can pay for our own sins then He died believing a foolish fantasy about Himself. A man's morality dictates His belief system. If there is no true Justice then there is no moral God. If there is no justice to come for the evil in the world then there is no moral God. Now why would a moral God who is infinitely Holy and Just offer His Son to take our guilt in our place in His court room on the final day of Judgment? Because He is loving, kind, compassionate and full of mercy. Now why would we refuse so great a love and kindness? We love to submit to our own knowledge and have our own way and do what pleases us and live selfish lives that result in a world of suffering and sin. We take pleasure in unrighteousness. And we will not believe in a God who is righteous and just and will hold us accountable. We believe that we can choose for ourselves what is right and wrong- without consequence. After all if we want to live the way we want to live we can't have a God who tells us what is right and what is wrong. We all excuse ourselves and condemn others. We go about judging others as if we are right and everyone else is wrong. This is the sin of pride, man acting as God. A Christian does not make an excuse for himself with regard to sin and righteousness, a Christian is overwelmed and humbled that God's love and forgiveness is made available- and with gratitude we throw down what we thought we loved in this world to embrace a love that is above this world. We feel like beggars being seated at the Kings banqueting table- seated right beside His Son. Forgiveness is offered freely to you and I, because Jesus suffered in our place. Divine moral justice is satisfied by the death of God's Son on the Roman cross. I cannot be against the atheist. Not when I see the love God has given to the atheist. If Jesus values you or any other skeptic enough to spill His own blood on your behalf, then I would say you should be loved, valued and respected. I do not believe you should be condemned for rejecting God. I believe you should be forgiven. You are welcome at my table regardless of your beliefs. I would love to meet you. Realizing all that God has forgiven me of I am indebted to Him to love all men as He does. By the way- shouldn't atheists be called agnostics. a- theist (by definition means no-god) that is an absolute that requires man to have infinite and absolute knowledge and proof. a-gnosis (by definition means no- knowledge) that means that the knowledge is lacking to provide proof of God.
John 8 (NASB) 54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God'; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple. (I am = YHWH = Jehovah)
Agnostic One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism. So, by definition the answer is no. You can't be both, unless you're an ass or hell bent on "creatively" picking apart definitions to prove yourself right.
rhester, thanks for taking the time to type that out. This isn't the first time I've heard this viewpoint.. and I suspect it won't be the last. I understand it perfectly. I cannot accept it. Or will not, if you insist that to be the case. Funny how we all admit such theological discussion is futile, yet are invariably drawn into it time and again My issues with Christianity - more so than any other religion - have been evident in my posts, I realise. This is due to a far more personal reason than you might expect, which I do not care to divulge here. But I stand by my views: Religion is man-made. It may seem nothing but true; it may make you happy, make your life better; it may fill your heart with love, teach you how to be a good person, help you make sense of the world.. all very nice, and I'm sincerely glad for your sakes if you have that. But it's man-made. It's not a universal truth. The sheer breadth of existence, the beauty of nature, the complexity of life.. these are universal truths. The feelings of love, compassion, and other good vibes.. these are human truths. Prophets and crosses and holy books? These are mere relics of culture How do I know this for sure? Because I take into account everyone's views. We (humans, animals.. even rocks, if they could perceive) look up at the starry night sky and see the same unchanging thing: that's universal. We examine our hearts and find love: that's human. Everything after that? It's just one big mess of conflicting observations and opinions I refuse to say some of you are correct, and the rest of you are misguided. That's just plain naive, and intellectually irresponsible - on what would I be basing my decision? Because every religion does make good points. Yet every religion is different, and every religion thinks it's right. What's a puny mind like mine to do? Just pick one and get comfortable with it? The best (most logical, most probable, most desirable) explanation, then, is that all of us are clueless. You can say that's my choice, that I "choose" to believe this (BURN!!!! ). But the evidence I've been presented with, the circumstances I've been placed in, the very nature of my thought processes.. means the only conclusion I could ever come to was this one Shouldn't all of us be called agnostics?
See: Flight 93, The Dialog at the end was taking directly from the flight recorder. Yes, there are other factors they weigh in and yes, most of these people may not realize the "true" facts behind everything. However, do you really believe that these religous suicide bombers think they will not go to hell? I believe that with all their heart they think they are doing the right thing for their family, religion, etc. but the main point is they believe they will be glorifed in heaven for this, not persecuted in hell. Hence why religion plays the biggest factor in my original point. To put it simply, Hell = bad Heaven = good. If neither existed, would person X still be a suicide bomber? Maybe, but then you're plugging in many other variables. As is, he believes that this needs to be done by the wishes of his god.
I respect your views and appreciate such a considerate response. We certainly need more dialogue concerning our differences. I believe differences are good, love demands difference. Obviously God did not make any two people exactly alike. The infinite love of God yearns for an infinite and ever increasing object of such Divine affections. You are more sure about alot of things than I am. I may D&D around here and pastor a church but I try to realize my obvious limitations. I know that I post mostly opinion and belief. I try to give reasons for the intellect. But I have learned in my own life that truth belongs to God. If He has revealed it to me, I again feel most humbled and grateful. I do believe Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and eternal life. I would that God would reveal such to everyone. But being human myself I pray to this Jesus Christ that He would reveal it more to me and to you. In a world of conflicting observations and opinions maybe truth must be known in places of conscience and heart that guide our mind. When my children were all little I told them that Jesus loved them. It seemed so human for them to just settle in to the peace and security of that statement. Maybe when we were children we all possessed something that is a little fragile and can easily be lost as we grow- a child's heart. I think Jesus said it this way, unless we become as children we just can't see the Kingdom of God. I love a Jesus I have never felt with my hands, seen with my eyes or heard with my ears. I don't know if that is faith, but I do know how it happened and I am quite sure God put that love in my heart. God bless you, univac hal
Good point! Except for me, he has proven Himself to me, beyond my doubts. I guess I am an 'agnostic' as a preacher, I feel totally inadequate in my own knowledge to prove Him to others. If He isn't wise and powerful enough to do for others what He did for me then I certainly don't know what to say. I will trust that if anyone comes to believe in God it was because of something He did. I can handle being his messenger, I'll even speak His words, but like planting a seed- I'll leave the life and growth part to God.
rhester isn't an "ass" trying to pick apart definitions to make a point. He doesn't practice a Hayesian method of attempting to prove his points by picking apart the details in someone's elses post, until the meaning of the original comment becomes meaningless, and lost in the parsing of words. (I'm sure Hayes understands where I'm coming from. ) I honestly believe in his faith, whether I believe in that faith, or not, and I think he is a seeker of truth in his own way. One can disagree with his conclusions, or his thoughts on what might be behind the beliefs of others, but I don't think rhester is doing anything in this discussion that isn't based on fundamental goodwill, and an attempt to understand others, even if their beliefs differ from his. Keep D&D Civil.
Didn't mean to offend, sorry if i offended any one person but I was speaking more in broad terms of anyone trying to deny it. Not trying to call anyone out. Just stating that in its definition it discusses the other as what you are not if you are an agnostic, so it is an impossiblity according to its definition. They only way to make it so would be something nonsensical. Hence an ass or picking apart a definition. I do it all the time, I am the king of asses sometimes, However, I dont think this was one of those times. Once again, not calling anyone out, just speaking in general.
For one thing, there have been secular suicide bombers even if they are uncommon. They're people pushed into desperation from hopeless conditions of squalor. Ironically, a lack of faith in anything probably spurs a secular suicide bomber. Then again, religiously motivated suicide bombings are among the minority of all violent deaths. Your account doesn't explain how religion causes the rest. Why does the extreme fit the rule? World War 1 was a slaughterhouse. A war to end all wars. There wasn't a good or evil side. To quote a favorite series of mine, "There are few wars between good and evil. Most are between one good and another good." These men have committed the most brutal and senseless acts upon each other yet in a different life they could be sharing drinks at a local pub. Why are the soldiers there in the first place? Why didn't they desert after conscription? It wasn't because they were God fearing. That doesn't mean there aren't religious wars, but for all intents and motives, the carnage and senselessness isn't that different from a war removed from religion. Again, it's something more basic.
Once again I agree. I'll leave it at that, I believe we are on the same side, my point was meant to be on a less of a global scale. As a whole, I've agreed with you from the start. My point wasn't meant to be considered Law for all religious deaths, just (what I believe to be) somewhat common circumstances in certain societies.
Not offended. In my short life I have embraced witchcraft, atheism, agnosticism, beach bumism, oceanicpantheism (worship of surf-god), rockmusicology (worship of getting stoned and constantly blasting my stereo up to 10 or playing in a rock n roll band for the purpose of getting girls, drugs and money) and Christianity. I was devoted to all of them, but I have only been convinced about Christianity- that is the one belief that I find truth in.
i'm saying i don't know about hell. i'm just asking, "what if??" i think the best i can do in describing hell is to say it's the absence of God. and like rhester, i've definitely considered the idea that Christ was just this great teacher. he just says otherwise.
I have appreciated your posting- sounds like you have a testimony of grace. yeah it really gets crazy in our church- sometimes I play with the praise and worship team and I will pick up a guitar and start playing a '60s or '70s song, almost always somebody will yell in the church -"hey that's_______" and my wife gives me that look- Pastor what are you playing? I even get requests
^ If I'm ever in town, I would like to stop by and pay your place a visit. I promise I won't shout out "Freebird"!
No one knows anything. Knowing and believing are two completely different things. Why care what someone else believes? I can see why you would care for those close to you (i.e. ya kids, ya gal, in-laws, etc), but for people you don't know...rarely interact with in a personal way? Just do you pimpin.... Also, congrats to everyone for having an actual debate/discussion and limiting the personal attacks. That seems to be rare for a D&D thread.
