you read that whole thing that quickly??? wow. i had to read it and re-read it. i didn't expect such a quick reply!!! thanks for taking the time to read it, though. i didn't expect it to change your life, univac. you're pretty entrenched in your position as i am in mine. but i hoped it would help you understand a different perspective on the faith than what you might have otherwise understood.
The "christians are hypocrites" argument has nothing to do with conversion tactics. I think it's based on watching christians judge people day in and day out, yet the bible rather specifically argues that everyone is a sinner, and judgement is stupid. "Let he who is without blame..." "Love your enemies..." etc. Not that all christians are this way, but the percentage seems to be growing as the dogma takes an ever greater precedence over the message. IMHO.
Good point- I understand you to mean the whole concept- You can't come to church unless you don't drink, smoke and dance. Total hypocrisy-- There is validity that there are so many 'flavors' of Christianity for this reason- "If you don't see it our way- the highway!"
YOU'RE SOOOOO RIGHT!!! and it sooooo flies in the face of the message of Christ in the gospels. which is intensely frustrating for me! you need to know, though, that there are churches trying hard to present this truth. that are trying to counter that message. read Velvet Elvis by Rob Bell. it's sort of a rallying call to that...to that sort of reform in the church. I think you'll really like it. Entertaining read.
It isn't a cop out at all. It is the way of things. If you don't think mankind has more understanding now of almost everything than mankind did several thousand years ago, then I would like to know why. If you do beleive that mankind does have more understanding now, then why you would accept it for everything but the Bible and God which certainly has been studied and examined as much as anything. Sometimes people want to pin Christians downt to the most literal translation of the bible so they can get out their need to argue against those things. But I don't think it is right of you to say that Christians who have studied and spent a lot of time on it only believe a certain way because it is a cop-out.
HEY!! I took a good half-hour to read it, man See, MadMax, I've come across as too harsh again.. There are so many Christian schools of thought out there, some of which are less than savoury - but know that I very much prefer the Christianity you, and a few others on this board, are living by and wanting to spread. I know Christians who share similar views, too. Good, wonderful people. I even fell in love with one. So believe me, I know your perspective on the faith more than you might imagine. And I'm learning more every day However, this doesn't stop me from disagreeing with the core tenets of the faith. You say Jesus is God. I say he may not be, and most probably isn't. My views are not based entirely on alternative, screwed-up versions of Christianity, but I get the impression you might imagine them to be. I know these versions exist, and some of my "arguments" are directed against them. But I know your version exists too. Do give me some credit here? And of course, I can't stress this final point enough: I'm not entrenched in my position at all. My position is that I have no position.. and that all of us simply don't have enough evidence to credibly maintain a position. I really, really, really think that if the Christian God exists, and if He truly wants to reach me, I won't turn Him away blindly. We shall see. You are right. That is a little harsh - my apologies
good post, one question though. have you considered that maybe you do have a position, that you are challenging God?
univac -- good post. you're right...i'm assuming far too much of what you already know or understand about my faith. i just see so many bastardized representations of what my faith is supposed to be, i suppose i'm a bit defensive to it. and unfortunately, the church at large isn't helping me much in correcting many of these perceptions.
I thought this might crop up I don't like the word "position".. it implies rigidity. What I have is a theory, I guess. I've formulated it from my observations of the world, and the process of applying my own reasoning. I don't "know" that I'm right, of course. I just "think" the theory is valid for now. If new evidence surfaces, I incorporate it as objectively as I can - which is rather tough, admittedly, but I certainly hope I'm capable of doing so As for what I "believe"? Yeah, I feel there's something greater out there. But I've come to terms with the likelihood that I'm never going to know the truth. There's a certain peace that comes with that.. with the acceptance of uncertainty. And I rather like it MadMax: Yeah, I know.. your frustration is perfectly understandable
I see there are a couple thought lines being discussed. I thought that atheist on the movie clip made a good point for Christians to consider. If (the if is big) a Christian believes in the eternal damnation verses Jesus spoke in the bible, and claims to believe the words Jesus spoke have relevance today; then why do those Christians with those beliefs seem careless about eternal damnation with respect to the people they love and care about- even to the point of ignoring or eliminating the subject. That was my original thought. Second, Madmax brings up a great point that (if I understand his point) God is living and real and man's biblical dogma, interpretive creeds, rules, favorite bible verses, regulations, ceremonies, commandments etc are not the reality of a living God encountering a person in a spiritual experience. Faith transcends the written rules- faith encounters the spiritual Father, and His Son Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit. So why the bible? - Truth When it comes to what happens after a person dies, the only thing that matters is truth. Jesus said this- "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63 This captures the reality of faith to me. Jesus words are spirit and they are life. A living faith is grounded in a truth that has a spiritual reality. That is why a living faith will result in a sincere expression of God's love. Don't atheists struggle with the contradiction of the 'love' message of the bible and the 'judgment message of the bible', don't atheists struggle with the Jesus of the bible and the attitudes and actions of Christ's followers? Can Christ's follower's resemble the Christ of the bible? Can they with a real living faith and a real living truth and a real living Christ? The bible without Jesus is a written book that by human reasoning and human preference results in differences of opinion, divisions of thought and actions which invariably leads to human efforts to live secure and happy, failed attempts towards unselfish love, quarrels, contempt and eventually a falling to selfrighteous arrogance and even hatred. Jesus without a bible is a creation in the imagination of man that is anchored to every individual's own perception and human experience- that Jesus is an idol of man's mind and thinking. Human experience without truth can only result in a god created in the likeness of every individual's own determination of moral and spiritual significance. A man-made Jesus. That Jesus (without truths) leads a religious man to injustice, selfishness and pride. The Jesus of the bible that if full of grace and truth gives man eternal life, true love and peace that cannot possibly be explained.
I really appreciate your posts, especially that you aren't rigid and you are using '?' It is certainly my own arrogance that would suppose I have hold of THE truth. The truth may be a person. A living expression of truth. Meeting that person, even in a spiritual experience could be a type of answer. It was for me. I am praying for you.
Thanks rhester, I appreciate that But according to MEOWGI, every time I use a "?", I'm actually saying "Cat's ass to you!! " http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=2518819&postcount=16 Just so you know
absolutely. THE truth about jesus is not accepted by me, nor has it been proven to me, therefore it is not THE truth. this is the biggest problem with the bible. it requires the impossible, the Absolute.
