At the risk of starting another religion thread...

Rokkit wrote: "what is a church doing with nearly $80 million dollars?!?"

here's something that sums up the way I feel.

"The God I believe in, isn't short of cash, mister." -- Bono, U2 - Rattle & Hum

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[This message has been edited by rockHEAD (edited July 06, 2001).]

 

rockHEAD.......I think brainwashed is a bit extreme. It`s actually a very good church, with an ever growing congregation. Please dont throw words around like "Brainwashed" becuase it shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.

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I think it is a great deal for the city.

As far as the church having 80 mil, thats just good business. Its unfortunet that the church depends on donations to survive, yet this survival is what turns off many.

I love Jesus, but I don't like to be a follower of men, but a fisher.

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"Chucky who? I thought we were talking about basketball?" Charles Barkley

 

hummmm...or maybe they're using part of that money to help all these people who were affected by the floods. Kneejerk reactions can be funny and cute...but Lakewood is currently one of the hubs of flood relief (along with Second Baptist).

brainwashed??? come on!!! these people are moved by their faith to give to others through the church. They belive that a life with Christ is a better than a life without him. They're acting accordingly with their pocketbooks. The funny thing is you'd probably be blaming them of hypocrisy if they didn't give that money.

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I firmly believe that Jesus Christ would want us to adhere to Deed Restrictions (unless they were Good Deed Restrictions).

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LOL Kingrene!!

 

Face it, God has a problem handeling money

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"For there is nothing either good or bad, thinking makes it so."
- William Shakespeare (1564-1616), Hamlet

 

I think that it is an ideal solution for the building. I don't care either way who owns it as long as it remains in operation giving us a legitimate shot at the Olympics in 2012. If Crescent got it, they'd just tear it down and build another garage. I'd prefer to see the building remain.

Lakewood is a good member of the community and I applaud them for that even if I don't believe in their religion.

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How the hell should I know why God would allow the Holocaust. I don't even know how the electric can opener works. - from Hannah and Her Sisters

 

What if the deed restrictions do not allow a church to be built on the land? Should we bend the rules just because we like Pastor Osteen? What about common homeowners who are bound to their deed restrictions because they don't have powerful friends in city government?

In my opinion, this deal stinks.


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Yeah, they call it "soul cleansing"

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I hate deed restrictions to begin with, but it really depends on what is best for the property. Is it better for the property to remain as an arena site with options for future events like the Olympics or for it to be torn down to build a large parking garage and an office building?

Which would serve more people? I don't really care about Osteen as much as I care about what will most benefit the people of Houston.

Besides, Crescent doesn't give a **** about deed restrictions. All they care about is the money they will make with the building of a parking garage and office building.

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How the hell should I know why God would allow the Holocaust. I don't even know how the electric can opener works. - from Hannah and Her Sisters

 

Deed restrictions are wonderful if enforced fairly. There are many beautiful neighborhoods in Houston because of them.

Also, I thought Crescent said they wanted to develop retail and office space there ( I could be wrong ).

I guess we will have to count the shoppers and the Christians in the area to answer that question.

They are in business to make money, and that should be their focus. My point is that government's only role here is to see that the law is applied fairly to all parties. Rules should not be broken to achieve a predetermined outcome. If Lee Brown and the city council are punishing Crescent for a past business deal (a rumor I heard on the news), then city government overstepped it's authority, and abetted in lawlessness.



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Deed restrictions are wonderful if enforced fairly. There are many beautiful neighborhoods in Houston because of them.

I live in the Heights, currently one of the most valued and beautiful neighborhoods in Houston and it has absolutely NO deed restrictions. I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder here anyway because Clear Lake is heavily restricted and it is ugly as sin. Kingwood is only pretty because they shoved a bunch of homes in the middle of a forest. I remember when my dad and I used to fish there before there were homes in the early 70's. It was a lot prettier then.

We've already had a long thread on this, but just let me say that I have never like deed restrictions because they are often unfairly enforced and are designed mostly to satisfy the asthetic desires of people rather than preserve the neighborhood.

A study done recently by the American Homeowners Resource Center found that deed restrictions rarely preserved a neighborhood from blight and decay. In fact, they had no measurable effect on home values either.

Abuse of restrictions over the past 20 years has steadily increased as more and more attorneys have entered the field. There weren't any "home owner association consultants" in 1980. Now, there is an association dedicated to it and an entire field of law based on it.

Further studies have revealed that a much better guage of home value is municipal involvement. Everything from zoning to police patrols create a much more stable home value environment.

What is most interesting is the fact that decay and home value decline is almost always the result of geography. As urban areas spread out, neighborhoods that were once on the edge of the city develop more of an urban feel. Additionally, as the values of homes increase near the city center, as they most always do, lower income residents move further away from downtown and settle in the area between outlying residential suburbs and downtown.

Even design can have a dramatic effect on neighborhoods. Ranch homes that populated deed restricted communities beginning in the early 70's are now mostly lower-middle income neighborhoods while those who used to live there have moved to larger scale master planned communities.

Bottom line is that deed restrictions have demonstrated no real measurable effect on the things they are supposedly designed to protect against: decay and a declining home value. They are a remnant of a time when cities followed little if any urban planning design and built in a rambling, uncoordinated manner to avoid the trappings of European style which is despised by many who prefer open sprawling areas to small communal areas.

Much of it can also be blamed on the fact that property development companies look for the cheapest land available to build large scale communities. The result is bigger houses on small plots of land that all look the same and are driven further and further from the city center. I wouldn't have a problem with that if they also provided office space and a real community living style that would keep people from having to commute long distances creating traffic and smog.

Anyway, I digress...

As for the Compaq Center, I am more concerned about the financial impact on the city. It is very likely that the Lakewood proposal is more adventageous to the city financially because it not only pays them near the same amount (if you consider a land swap deal equitable which many don't considering the city is likely to claim eminent domain on the downtown property in question) but the city maintains ownership of the building and property.

That sounds like a much better investment than simply trading land parcels with a development company.

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How the hell should I know why God would allow the Holocaust. I don't even know how the electric can opener works. - from Hannah and Her Sisters

 

Have you seen Ed Young's (the minister of second babtist) place? If that's not excessive for a 'man of god' then I don't know what is. There is no reason other than hubris that he lives where he does.

I would also like to point out that the leaders of several other nearby churches have been down on him in the past for targegting their members for 'recruitment' rather than the great unwashed masses. (I.E. He actively steals members from other churches.)

I know nothing first hand about Lakewood church so I will refrain from comment, but Ed Young is one step removed from Benny Hinn.

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Jeff,

I agree with most of what you have written, but we are now making different arguments. I am concerned with the role of government as it pertains to contracts between private citizens. Why should City Council be able to grant relief from the contract to Lakewood Church, when a pastor with a small following would never be granted the same concession?

We need for the rule of law to apply to everybody equally, or rules will become ineffective. This simple philosophy is what separated this country during the Clinton administration scandals, and I guess many people are still not able to comprehend the other side's point of view.

Some people see law as an absolute, others see law as a "guide". I see most laws as a pain in the arse, but if I have to follow the rules set forth by my Deed Restrictions, then I am damn sure going to raise hell when the rich and powerful are given free rein.

Of course, the court may rule in favor of Lakewood, so the my points may be irrelevant in this case. I am no stranger to irrelevancy!



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I don't see how this is all that different from something like targeting a company for a tax abatement. For instance, say the city decides that they want to lure a proposed 'National Semiconductor' plant to Houston. It is perfectly accepted practice to offer a tax abatement on the land to that company and only that company when they provide something that the city wants.

Though the nature of the entity recieving the tax relief is totaly different, the concept from the city's perspective isn't all that different. Lakewood provides a solution that the city finds advantagous. Any other church that could provide the same outcome with the same degree of surety would be most likely provided with the same situation, should the Lakewood deal fall throught, and should they choose to pursue it.

From this perspective the city views Lakewood at a business and potential tennant, not as a chrurch, and this is how they should approach it.

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Ottoman, you don't address my main point. There is no contract between private citizens with your tax scenario that the government is declaring void.

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Muldoon lived alone in the Irish countryside with only a pet dog for
company.
One day the dog died, and Muldoon went to the parish priest and asked, "Father, me dog is dead. Could ya' be sayin' a mass fer the poor creature?"
Father Patrick replied, "I'm afraid not; we canna have services for an animal in the church. But there is a new denomination down the lane, and there's no tellin' what they believe. Maybe they'll do somethin' fer the creature."
Muldoon said, "I'll go right away Father. Do ya' think $5,000 is enough to donate fer the service?"
Father Patrick exclaimed, "Sweet Mary, Mother of Jesus! Why dinna ya' tell me the dog was Catholic?






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I understand what you are saying but I view law as changing. Obvioulsy, there are many laws today that will not exist 50 years from now just like some laws that existed 50 years ago don't exist today. I don't advocate lawlessness, but I do recognize that laws many times inadvertently interfere with what could be considered the common good or personal rights of privacy.

I just look on them as guidelines to follow for now until we decide (as a whole, that's what democracy is all about) they should be changed. Many of them I would follow even if they weren't laws, but others I don't follow consistently even now - some traffic laws come immediately to mind.



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How the hell should I know why God would allow the Holocaust. I don't even know how the electric can opener works. - from Hannah and Her Sisters