If I didn't know Astros management very well I might be optimistically inclined to take it to mean that they might just want to sign a few people to 1 year contracts. But then they're still the Astros. But hey, he's saying now "This isn't the end of a process, it's the beginning of it. Hey, we might find an opportunity to do something like last year's Jeff Kent scenario. It' might just pop up tomorrow, who knows." That almost sounded like "Hey, we're about to get Andy Pettitte, so screw Billy Wagner. I didn't want to be rude so I said it that way." But then he went on to that little thing about "You gotta have a good mix of veterans and young players. Just look at the Angels and the Marlins..."
Billy Wagner was our best player last year. We just traded him for BRANDON DUCKWORTH and two minor leaguers. Drayton McLane makes it very difficult to root for the Astros. Drayton, please sell the team to someone who is willing to analyze the profitability of the team on a 10-year horizon with an exit strategy, instead of someone who analyzes his investment on a yearly operating cash flow basis. Drayton move back to Temple and re-focus your efforts on continuing to run Baylor into the ground. Your work here needs to end.
Why does everyone think we will be able to get Pettite. The Yankees have already said that signing Pettite back is their #1 priority. No way the Astros can compete with that. Unless Pettite is dead set on coming here the $$$ is going to do the talking. I really wish the Astros would have traded Wagner to a AL team. Now we are going to have face him next year and he is going to be on a mission to make us look as bad as possible.
Bigg can get around on the Wags' heater. Berkman right v BW? Not pretty sights. Just curious -- would the 'stros swap Doggie and Bags for Manny? Apparently Bosox would. Less year on year salary. Just wondering.
Billy Wagner, the Astros best player last year? Is this the same Billy Wagner who chokes every time he sees Atlanta? Is this the same Wagner who blew a key game vs SF the last week of the year, the same day he said on 610 that the Astros didn't belong in the playoff race? Is this the same Wagner who after 10 years in the majors doesn't have confidence in a 2nd pitch against good teams? Is this the same Wagner who makes 8-9 mil the next two years? Do the Astros not have two fireballers in Dotel and Lidge with closer stuff? I will say it again. Closer is the most overrated position in baseball. Look at all the one year wonders if you don't believe me. Like Tim Worrell in SF last year, and Rod Beck coming out of a 3 or 4 year hiatus to kick butt. And you are mad the team sheds its most expendable asset, freeing up payroll, getting a top prospect and middle of the rotation starter in return. You won't get much more for a closer. I understand talent wise the astros probably lost, but guess what, Wagner will not be a closer for a championship team and he is now philadelphia's problem and burden, while the Astros can fill other needs for 8 mil.
Well all we really got in return for our best pitcher in 1999, Mike Hampton, was Octavio Dotel and his 5.38 era plus Roger Cendeno. That worked out pretty well for us. I am not marking this down as a bad trade unitl I see how well Duckworth pitches for us, and if the freed up money helps us land someone in the offseason or at the trade deadline next year.
I don't know, the way Andy said that stuff about being willing to take a "Jeff Kent-like" contract, but only from the Astros. He wants to come here, and I think he'd be willing to come for cheap. You gotta take advantage of that if it's there.
I can't belive you guys aren't seeing everything clearly... The Astros HAD to trade Wagner... not for his disparaging remarks, not because he has a TOP-NOTCH REPLACEMENT in Dotel, but because he will become a FA after next year, and there's no way they were going to re-sign him. They're getting something for him this way, where they wouldn't be getting anything for him if they had kept him. I think people aren't realizing that the MARKET for baseball players have changed. This is why the player's association might file a grievance of COLLUSION. Wags currently makes $8 million... if those contract negotiations after 2001 took place today, there's NO WAY the market would dictate that much for a closer. The VALUE of a closer has gone down drastically, as has basically the value of any position player, besides starting pitching. I, for one, am thankful that somebody actually gave up something for him to begin with. We needed a team with deep pockets and looking to make a splash... I'm very suprised that it actually happened so soon. The Astros will be fine... Wagner, while he had an amazing year, is actually replaceable (especially by Dotel... but if not him, then by Lidge). If the Astros are able to get Pettite, then more power to him. I know the Yankees don't want to let him go, but word out of NY is that he's not looking for money.... he'll only stay with them out of loyalty. And, if this money doesn't go towards getting anybody new, I'd rather be able the 'Stros to sign Oswalt and Miller long-term, than have them leave as soon as they're due their big pay-raise.
Tell that to the Red Sox....or the Yankees for that matter...Joe Torre said that the biggest thing that the Marlins did in the series was keep Mariano on the bench and not give him a chance to come in. DV...I agree with some of your points...I happen to think that Dotel or Lidge MAY be able to take over...but we just took a huge chunk out of our bullpen...which is arguably the strongest part of our team....and for what? Hopefully the prospects we got pan out (Hunsicker is good and I'll give him his due)...but Duckworth is a joke. The problem with this trade is , as I said before, the problem with baseball in general.
Yes, he absolutely was. There is no doubt about it. What Astro player doesn't choke against Atlanta? Your point is destroyed. What Astro didn't choke down the stretch? When you can't beat the Brewers, your problem is more than any one player. Your point is destroyed. His slider has become an effective pitch for him -- you must not watch him pitch much. When you've got a 100+mph fastball, you don't need to throw anything else. You are just speaking with no knowledge of his abilities here. Wagner saved 44 of 47 games last year. He had an incredible season. Your point is destroyed. The going rate for an all-star player of Wagner's caliber is that amount of money. If Drayton weren't so cheap, this would not be an issue. This should not be an issue, given Houston's size and our new ballpark. Your point is destroyed. Yes, and they are functioning just fine in their set-up roles, compensating for the Astros deficiencies in the starting rotation. Lidge's track record is plagued with injuries. Dotel did horribly as a closer when he filled in for Wagner a couple years back. They may have closer stuff, but we now have a massive void in the bullpen. The analysis goes well beyond their stuff. Your analysis is woefully incomplete. Your point is destroyed. The problem with your argument here is that Wagner has proven himself, over many years, to be a top-notch closer. He is not a one-year-wonder. Look at the stats. You are comparing apples to oranges. Your point is destroyed. Um, no, you don't seem to understand. We got Brandon Duckworth, not a 'middle of the rotation starter' in return. Duckworth has a career losing record. He has a career ERA of close to 5.00. He sucks. Your point is destroyed. What you don't understand is Drayton's frugality. Do you know where that $8mm will go? It won't go to new players, it will go to players who are coming off their rookie contracts. Don't think for one minute that we will upgrade our talent level. Drayton would actually have to spend money to do that. We had to do this deal to keep the status quo (minus Wagner). Your point is destroyed.
Look I agree this goes back to baseball's economic structure. You make money with population and cable deals. Houston has the fans but no cable deal, which is why they spend 70-75 mil not 100 plus. However, as long the structure stays the same, investing 8-9 mil in a closer, albeit a good one, isn't smart for the Astros. They need a guy like Pettitte much more than they need Wagner. And they need Hidalgo more than they need Wagner, so I'm fine moving Billy. Also on my closer point. Outside of Smoltz, Gagne and Rivera, there is no true shut down lights out closer. Wagner will never close on a WS team, because good teams light him up. Just look at his numbers vs Atlanta, and in the playoffs. So if we don't have a postseason shutdown closer already, than why waste 8 mil on a guy who doesn't fit the needs of a mid market team. We don't have that special closer, Wagner was merely good, so trading him doesn't hurt that much. It might be a step back right this minute, but going into next season, I would put money on it being a plus, if we use our 12-13 mil avail wisely. I'm looking more at the big picture not the trade on the surface, and I think its a good move dictated by baseball's economic stupidity.
It wasnt meant to be an insult, it was an honest question. Who says "your point is destroyed?" just because you typed it, doesnt mean you "destroyed" anyones point. For the most part DV was right on target. You made some valid remarks, but as for DESTROYING him...
I agree....but they didn't get anyone remotely like Pettite...and odds are, they won't. If they had landed Padilla or Myers in this deal...I'd be happier...but not a guy who has never proven anything in the majors. Like I said...I hope the prospects turn out to be good.
Oh, I see. So if I ask you if your mother resembles a woolly mammoth then that would be an honest question as well. Terrific. Ty, it seems to me that you are unable to respond to my points. Refute my points if you agree with DVauthrin. His old, tired arguments and cliches are simply not applicable this time around.
Ty: Never argue with Trader Jorge. It is a complete and total exercise in futility. CASE CLOSED, ROOKIE! by the way, he's 10 1/2...
Just to let you know, there are other teams out there with "Closer Albatross Contracts" that would be just happy to get the deal we got: St. Louis - Sure Isringhausen has been injured most of the time for them, but he's still not worth the $7 million he's costing when he's healthy (also, you can look at their record being a game worse after he came back from his injury last year). San Fransisco - Rob Nenn - Even had he been healthy this year, there's no way the Giants would resign him... and he's been even more dominant than Wagner. I'm also one who believes that as Wagner his turning 32 next year, his best years ARE behind him... but he'll still put up great numbers. Also, $8-9 million IS NOT the market for Wagner... it may be true for a Gagne or Rivera because they can work MORE than one inning. That's why NY needed Rivera so much in the postseason (and, not to mention that they didn't have much of a bullpen anyways). Those guys can pitch 3+ innings because of their excellent control of a variety of pitches... Wagner has 2, and he only really has control over fastball. Another note: you probably won't see many closers DEVELOPED, as Wagner was. This guy never even sniffed the starting rotation in the big leagues. The other two dominant closers in the majors... Smoltz and Gagne... were starters first. You'll see more teams doing that in order to develop a closer with more versatility and better "stuff".
