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Astros pushed for Andy/Pettite and Clemens were "frustrated with Astros team culture"

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by Oski2005, Dec 5, 2007.

  1. Major

    Major Member

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    I don't think Clemens was terribly committed to winning. If he was, he would have joined the Astros early in the season instead of waiting until late June. Given that we missed the playoffs by 1.5 games, perhaps had he actually tried to give his team the best chance to win, we might have made the playoffs in 2006.

    Clemens was always about himself - nothing more. Pettitte was different, though.
     
  2. gunn

    gunn Contributing Member

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    What facts are those?
     
  3. msn

    msn Member

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    Awesome. The Astros don't have any employees or overhead or a ~$100M payroll or prima donnas to take care of. Drayton is making money hand over fist--and pocketing it all! McScrooge!!!!11
     
  4. msn

    msn Member

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    Each individual piss-and-moan act has been shot down by clear facts. Which one would you like to dredge up? Hampton? Kile? Randy Johnson? Beltran? Oh, and there's the $100M+ payroll and all.

    Those facts.
     
  5. Major

    Major Member

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    No - I said all the owners treat their teams like a business. That means they are going to put sustainability over all over factors, including winning. Winning brings revenues. Spending can (but not always) increase winning. Each business will spend to the point where it's reasonable for their circumstances, and no more. That's why the Royals will maintain a $30 MM payroll - that's what they need to be sustainable. The Astros will have a $90 MM payroll (top 1/3rd of the league), because that's what gives them the most value. The Yankees will have a $200 MM payroll for the same reason.

    All the teams would love to win - none is going to consistently lose money to do so. Some teams have the resources to spend like crazy to try to win all the time (the Yankees). Others simply don't and resign themselves to not winning (the Pirates). The Astros are somewhere in the middle, but have done more than their share of winning during the Drayton era.
     
  6. gunn

    gunn Contributing Member

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    You don't really know? Wow couldn't have guessed that. So basically, you're just talking out of your rear right now, right? Because you are presenting it as if you know, but you really don't.
     
  7. A-Train

    A-Train Contributing Member

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    Drayton has a billion dollars. He can buy off God AND still have plenty to leave his children...
     
  8. msn

    msn Member

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    You don't really know? So basically, in accusing Drayton McLane of pocketing money he could use to improve his product, you're just talking out of your ass, right? Because you present your case so dogmatically. But in reality, you don't know.

    The facts of how the Astros have spent money indicate that the team is willing to spend money when it's feasible. That is plainly visible.
     
  9. gunn

    gunn Contributing Member

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    You mean that 85 million dollar payroll right? The one where he was paying 15 mil to a player that didn't play? Hell you might as well say that he had a 150 million dollar payroll if you are going to account for people that don't play.
     
  10. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    Pettite...maybe, but Roger Clemens. C'mon, the guy was on vacation 9 months of the year.

    this is a joke right? don't blame the fact that the team didn't win while you were here on your performances, but on the team itself.

    Don't blame the fact that you could never win until you joined an already dominant team on your success or failure, but the culture of the organizations you were on.

    Piss off Roger.
     
  11. gunn

    gunn Contributing Member

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    I wish I could be a child with my arguments too. Not transparent at all.
     
  12. jakedasnake

    jakedasnake Member

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    I don't know who it is intended for if true, but I can see them talking about the players rather than the organization itself. Maybe they didn't think the players did enough to prepare for every game like they do in New York or maybe they don't take it hard after a loss like the Yankees would.
     
  13. Major

    Major Member

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    You have yet to make an argument. All you have done is whine. What facts back up your argument (whatever it may be)?
     
  14. msn

    msn Member

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    Ohhhh, that's rich. Let's just penalize McLane for career-ending injuries. He spent the money, did he not? And if he had let Bagwell go rather than pay him, all the "cheapsters" would have been chirping all the louder, and they would have for once had an actual point.
     
  15. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    Well Clemens is 46 or whatever and he probably can't go a full season. It's proabably smarter to rent him for half a season and have him for the playoffs.

    I wouldn't say he wasn't committed to winning the way he pitched for us at his age. He was sick. His overall ERA was what, under 2.50???

    My only point is that Clemens and Pettitte have insight into the organization that we don't have. They may not be right, but since we dont REALLY know all the finances, it's interesting info.
     
  16. msn

    msn Member

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    Nice ad hominem. I'm sorry you completely missed the point, so let me spell it out: your making an assertion that McLane is cheap is even less founded on observable facts than my opinion that he's not. As such, until you provide an actual argument, you're the one "talking out of your rear."

    But that's how weak, unfounded arguments go. They move from some whiny, unfounded complaint or accusation, to sidestepping a bunch of facts and information that points the other direction, to finally lobbing insults. If you continue this pattern, you may actually get your wish.
     
  17. Major

    Major Member

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    Then he should have let the team make that decision. He should have said "I'm available whenever you want me - I'm committed to this team, you tell me what you need". Instead, he wavered and waffled such that the Astros couldn't make any decisions on the offseason knowing whether he would be there or not. And then he limited himself to pitching from the end of June and on.

    That certainly is true - and what jakedasnake suggested could be true (that they players weren't as concerned with losing or whatever) - but that has nothing to do with Drayton and his "commitment to winning". Clemens doesn't know the team's finances any more than we do.
     
  18. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    he could have kept giving us that hometown discount, though, right?
     
  19. gunn

    gunn Contributing Member

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    I think that to say "all owners treat their teams like a business" is a blanket statement. Of course it is a business that they are in, and not a club, but to level their commitments by saying as such is wrong.
     
  20. Major

    Major Member

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    Absolutely it's a blanket statement - a true one. These teams ARE businesses and they are treated as such. No owner is going to sit and lose $30MM/yr from their personal money in order to win. It's a dumb business strategy and it won't happen. If you can name a single team, NBA, NFL, MLB etc that does such a thing, please let me know.
     

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