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Astros missed the boat on Kim

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by countingcrow, May 29, 2003.

  1. countingcrow

    countingcrow Contributing Member

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    Boston and Arizona consummated a trade earlier today involving Shea Hillenbrand and Byung-Hyun Kim. ESPN reports Kim will be a starter in Boston. He has pitched really well this season as a starter, but has been a victim of horrible run support. He has a rubber arm and can pitch lots of innings.

    I am sure the Astros could have been part of this derby.
     
  2. DVauthrin

    DVauthrin Contributing Member

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    Do you really think Arizona would trade Kim to a potential playoff team in the NL?

    Plus we would need to send cheap hitting talent to Arizona. The best thing we have in that regards is Ensberg and Lane, and with Morgan's emergence this year, he isnt going anywhere.

    The redsox have mueller who can play 3rd and traded an overrated hillenbrand for a good pitcher.

    The astros don't have the payroll flexibility nor the roster flexibility to give arizona what they wanted.

    You can say well Blum can play 3rd, but the thing is the Astros need pieces for the future too, Bagwell, Kent and biggio are all in their late 30's.

    Ensberg is one of those pieces now.
     
  3. Puedlfor

    Puedlfor Contributing Member

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    Plus, how many people thought Arizona would trade Kim for Shea Hillenbrand or someone of that caliber? Seriously? I didn't.

    I'm not sure Hunsicker did either.

    Kudos to Epstein for pulling this one over on the D'Backs, he's done a good job with this team(*cough*I told you so Manny*cough*), but I didn't see this one coming at all.

    So I wouldn't really fault the Astros for not trading for Kim.
     
  4. countingcrow

    countingcrow Contributing Member

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    Do you guys honestly believe that Hunsicker had no knowledge of this deal being discussed?

    According to MLB.com, these two teams have been discussing these two players since the winter meetings in December. If I am not mistaken, it is Hunsicker's job to be at those meetings.

    Hillenbrand has been on the block ever since the end of last season, nearly being traded in a deal for Colon in the offseason.

    I have no idea what the D-Backs didn't like about Kim. He is versatile by being able to start and close with success. He has a rubber arm and his delivery is very difficult for any hitter to discern. His record this season as a starter is 1-5 but Arizona scored a total of "1" run in his 5 losses combined. That, my friend, is horrible run support. No wonder Kim is happy to get out of that hell hole.

    I would have given up Ensberg plus another prospect had that been what Arizona requested to get Kim to Houston. Another opportunity missed. Oh well!
     
  5. DVauthrin

    DVauthrin Contributing Member

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    I'm sure he did, but you are forgetting one important thing.

    Kim is likely to make 5 mil or so in arbitration next year. Do you really want to gamble on him panning out as a starter for that kind of cash. The redsox can afford to, the astros who are already stretched to the max financially, can't.
     
  6. countingcrow

    countingcrow Contributing Member

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  7. Rockets34Legend

    Rockets34Legend Contributing Member

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    Why do we need Kim when we have Dotel and Wagner? Where would we fit him? How would we pay him? We have quality pitchers that we have to give time to develop.
     
  8. Timing

    Timing Member

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    Guys like Munro, Robertson, Johnson etc. are not quality pitchers. They're just stop gaps.


    Gotta laugh about Ensberg being a piece for the future. He's going on 28 years old and hasn't even played a whole season in the majors. I think when you can trade an Ensberg for a better player who's younger then you do that every time. Our window is now, not next year and the year after that etc. We can worry about payroll when we have to deal with it.
     
  9. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    He'd be a starter.
     
  10. Rockets34Legend

    Rockets34Legend Contributing Member

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    Kim a starter?!?! How is that possible? He's role is a closer or a setup man. There wouldn't be anyway the Astros would put him as a starter.
     
  11. DVauthrin

    DVauthrin Contributing Member

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    Not in this case.

    Three things:

    1) Kim is making 2 mil this year, and as I posted earlier will be in the 5 mil range next year. We don't need him in the bullpen either, so he would have to be a great starter to invest 5 mil in him. And he is just as unproven in the role as our young kids.

    2) The Astros payroll is above its expectations with the Kent signing. And he deferred money to keep in check, so I wouldnt expect us to take the risk of giving up a prime young talent for a pitcher we could stand to lose or give up for trade next year.

    3) Ensberg has shown this year why he was so highly thought of the year before. He isn't Shea Hillenbrand, who masks an average player behind a solid average. He is a legit player. His numbers right now are .280 avg, .381 OBP, .512 SLG, =.893 OPS.

    That ability to control the strikezone stands to suggest he has a long term future in the bigleagues.
    And hes done all this as a platoon player.

    Now I'm not dead set against trading him, but just because he is 28 when he really made it, doesnt mean he sucks. Look at Jason Giambi in oakland, his brother jeremy, etc. Both were in their mid 20's when they burst on to the scene. And there are a handful of others like Sosa for instance who bounced around till that age or later until the light bulb went off in their heads.

    But the biggest thing is the Astros are already over budget, and why take on payroll for an unproven starting pitcher and give up a good prospect at a position the Astros should put a premium on.

    Plus we dont need to give up ML talent to get what we need. I still think signing finley(if drayton will open it up), trading for a cheap but proven starter like Brian Lawrence in SD(as they arent contending this year) or if the mets are willing to eat most of his 2 year salary, a deal for Leiter.

    I'm not saying I don't want a pitcher like everyone else, I just realize we have a budget to follow and don't think Kim was the right guy for us. And the Astros can't afford to gamble on him being the answer at the potential price in a year or so.
     
  12. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    Huh? He was a starter this year for Arizona. He'll be a starter for the BoSux. He was a closer last year.
     
  13. Buck Turgidson

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    Never let facts get in the way of a good rant. Outstanding job.
     
  14. Rockets34Legend

    Rockets34Legend Contributing Member

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    Well, he wouldn't fit on our squad anyways.
     
  15. Behad

    Behad Contributing Member

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    ????:confused: How does he not fit in the revolving door that is our 4-5 starters?
     
  16. Timing

    Timing Member

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    Ensberg is a 27 year old rookie! Sosa was a big time prospect as a teenager and both Sosa and Giambi were regulars in the majors far before Ensberg. Stop dreamcasting please. Ensberg is playing well right now but seriously get a hold of yourself man! :)

    Al Leiter doesn't want to play in Houston, he's said so before. Brian Lawrence is a proven starter? Geez man...
     
  17. DVauthrin

    DVauthrin Contributing Member

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    Timing,

    I know Sosa was a huge prospect, but it took him until 1998 to be the player he is today. That was when he was 30 years old. If you want me to be kind he had his first solid season in 1994, at age 26, with an .884 OPS for the cubs.

    Giambi made the bigleagues at 24, but didn't become the caliber of hitter he is today until age 28, when he first posted a 900 ops, but he was productive starting his 2nd year in the bigs at age 25.

    But he spent 6 years in the minors figuring it out too.

    My point was that a lot of great hitters took a long time to develop. Now there are the A-Rod's, Sorianos, the Vlad's who are so gifted they shine quickly, but a lot of players arent like that.

    And if I could trade morgan straight up for them I would in a nanosecond.

    But BK Kim was a costly/risky gamble on a starting pitcher in my opinion, and I wouldnt have traded a solid young player for him and his contract, with his risks attached is all.

    As far as leiter goes I was dreaming of a land where the mets realize they need to rebuild and eat contracts to do so, and Leiter has a desire to go for another ring. Apparently he is satisfied with his marlins one.

    As far as Brian Lawrence is concerned, he only makes 625k this year(low risk), is on a team that is rebuilding and is way out of contention this year, and has era's in 2001 and 2002 of 3.45, and 3.69 respectively.

    Also his GB/FB ratio is over two those years but a bit low for him this year at 1.26.

    With his salary, MMP's dimensions and his propensity to groundballs, I like the fit is all.
     

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