I already did - multiple times. You changed the subject each time: #1: No answer as how to hold them accountable. #2: Random gibberish response. Didn't address the topic at all. #3: Pointed out all the random opposing stances you've taken in this thread. No response.
Productive players have value, obviously. But those players are also not terribly difficult to find. Case in point, Rasmus last offseason. And therein lies my issue: extract the outliers (I think, btw, only 3 have HoF potential) and assume it's the rule. If, 5-6 years from now, we traded three Colby Rasmus-level prospects for Craig Kimbrel-level reliever/closer, no one will look back and regret that deal.
And my answer to your question is "B". I haven't said anything negative of Giles. I've seen his work, and his stuff, and it looks elite. And I answered your question!! I'll ignore any implied sarcasm near the end of your comment
You are not asking point blank questions. You are asking gibberish, because my responses were to other allegations. Crose, at least he asked his point blank questions! 1) As a fan I cannot actually hold Jeff Luhnow accountable, but I hope that Crane, the fans base, the media, etc. will due their due dillegence. It was lonely there at minute maid park from 2011 - 2014.... 2) I've said I did not like including Appel, but if they thought low of him, why not include him last year. Does your mind not know how to think outside the box? Was it reactionary because they lost against the Royals in dramatic fashion? I'm not privileged to the Astros minor league reports of him. 3) And that is the while elephant in the room. We don't know what led the Astros to all of a sudden include Appel. But we should question it, because it is a prerogative we have.
Its not that drastic... certainly not white elephant drastic. Rumors are there was an issue with Fisher's physical... again, not sure how much of that is true or not, but at the end of the day he wasn't traded. Then you have the fact that Appel hasn't been very good. There's a high probability that his value as a prospect was never going to be high again... unless he came up to the big leagues and flashed elite stuff. As we have all pointed out, there is no role for him as of now on the big league club other than possible fringe #6 starter. This could have been just as much as the Astros trying to capture "something" for him as it could be the Phillies really valuing what he may still be able to bring to the table. As far as why he wasn't included in any deals last year... do we have confirmation that he wasn't? He may have been part of the Hamels, Chapman, and Kimbrel deals... and they all just didn't work out.
That's a lot of outliers that you have to remove. Also, Colby Rasmus over his club control years, though inconsistent, had slightly more WAR than Kimbrel. So three of him would be a very nice value.
My God, I just read through this whole thread. Why, OH WHY, didn't anyone listen to The Beard 14 pages ago? It would have saved so much god-awful discussion that got nowhere. In general, I'm good with this trade. I was actually happier to see the switchout of Appel for Fisher. To me, at this stage, Appel is Scott Elarton. A guy with all the makeup and "stuff" to be a top of the rotation guy who will never do anything consistently well in the majors. He'll show flashes on occasion, just enough to keep all the fans hoping he puts it together...but he never will. I'm very glad I will be spared that reality on my team. I have no idea if Fisher will be much of a MLB contributor on this team, but I have much higher hopes for it than Appel. It does feel like a lot was given out, but I agree with most that a solid amount of it would not have contributed much to this Astros team now that they are good again, so I don't mind. One can criticize the opportunity cost as RileyDog mentioned, but that's a tough thing to do since none of us really know what other opportunities were out there (barring another computer system leak). The GARM-ification of this forum is simultaneously encouraging and discouraging, which is a weird feeling.
Here is a question.... Assume in their respective minor league careers, Appel and Fisher had performed exactly the same and were drafted in exactly the same position. Assume the Astros had Fisher and team B had Appel. Assume there is no organizational need for outfielders or pitchers and this scenario popped up. Would you (as the Astros) trade Fisher for Appel straight up? Assume the Astros had Appel and team B had Fisher. Would you (as the Astros) trade Appel for Fisher straight up?
Actually, the one thing Elarton did do consistently was be an excellent bridge/middle-relief guy in 1998 and 1999. Its a shame that he was not only overused by Dierker but the club never revisted putting him back in this role when he bombed as a starter. Frankly, I do believe that's where Appel's career will end up... and he could take very well to the middle relief/late-inning bullpen role. That being said, you don't pass up a trade to get a guy who is already there (and under club control) for the worry that Mark Appel may turn into a solid bullpen guy.
Also, lost in all this is the fact that Giles is only 9 months older than Appel... but has already pitched 2 quality years in the big leagues, while its still a stretch to say that Appel even deserves a chance to debut in the big leagues.
Just an honest question, but why has Appel dominated the conversation lately when VV had a good half year at the MLB level? Unless there is something wrong with VV that came up in physical or if injury history freaks out teams more than normal, he's likely twice as valuable as Appel. Shouldn't Appel be compared to the guy in diapers instead of Giles?
At this point, its simply because he was the consensus #1 pick (actually for 2 years straight)... and people were just blindly optimistic that he'd somehow live up to it.
Appel is being discussed because it was apparently the late inclusion of him over Fisher that has some questioning the trade. I love the fact that we got exactly what we need without having to sacrifice any ML roster contributors or any of our real gems on the farm.
Mike Hauschild (25 years old) - 2015 stats AA - 10 games, 3.20 ERA, 1.204 WHIP, 4.38 K/BB AAA - 15 games, 3.80 ERA, 1.289 WHIP, 3.00 K/BB Mark Appel (24 years old) - 2015 stats AA - 13 games, 4.26 ERA, 1.437 WHIP, 2.13 K/BB AAA - 12 games, 4.48 ERA, 1.39 WHIP, 2.18 K/BB Where does Hauschild rank on your prospect list, vince? Would we still have gotten "fleeced" if he was included instead of Appel? Hauschild won't appear on any prospect list. He's a name that only the most fervent followers of Astros minor league players will know. And he pretty steadily outperformed Mark Appel last season. This idea that Appel is this asset that other teams covet is nonsensical. He's a lottery ticket. If the goal was to trade him for someone impactful, there would always need to be a Velasquez or a McCullers or a Reed attached with him. Just because some Astros (and Phillies fans, apparently) are blinded by the #1 pick label does not mean other GMs are. He's a big name that can get a casual Philadephia fanbase excited about a trade, but there is enough evidence out there to suggest that there are numerous players (even including non-prospects like Hauschild) that have been and will continue to outperform him.
I don't know if it was completely her personal opinion of him, or based on her knowledge of the industry consensus on him, but, when the Fiers/Gomez deal was made, Footer claimed that if Appel was included instead of Hader, there's no chance the Brewers would have made the deal. I find that hard to believe, but who knows
But he provided good value before injuries ended his career. Just because they didn't become stars doesn't mean they didn't provide value.
Funny how riled up people can get with a little dialog. Next thing you will say I am on the wrong side of history. That is the common narrative by people like you. You make up your own mind, that is fine. I trust you can do that ballbaa.... I'm not gonna hold your hand. I'd of said my thought and moved on, but the constant attacks, well my opinion isn't wrong or right. Some agree others don't. It sparked some heated debate.
Fisher has a weak arm, well below average. His fielding isn't the best. I would not trade Appel for Fisher. I have followed minor league baseball far too long, and minor league numbers can be like fools gold. Fisher is a left fielder, which is not a premium position. That is why I had no problem trading him. But now it's coming out he might have failed his physical. Maybe it is Karma for tanking when the Astros should have been trying to win.
