1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

As long as Dierker is in charge, the Astros will never go anywhere.

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by JBIIRockets, Aug 16, 2001.

  1. gr8-1

    gr8-1 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 1999
    Messages:
    7,918
    Likes Received:
    2
    There's a general rule in life and sports that I go by : Talent usually wins. I think the Stro's have way more talent then the Cubs. We can take it position by position if you'd like. I don't think you have as big an edge in pitching as some would say.

    This is gonna be a 3 team race. Hats off to the Cubs, you won a series in Enron. No excuses, but the Stros don't play well there, I don't know why.
     
  2. Behad

    Behad Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 1999
    Messages:
    12,358
    Likes Received:
    190
    I have to disagree on this one. Hidalgo's work ethic is as strong as anybody on that team, and he is constantly praised for it. However, what you are seeing is the 25 lbs. of muscle he added over the off-season...and that's his problem. I think he threw off his timing by added so much muscle, then he started pressing to make up for it.

    But Cato-esque....no way.
     
  3. Tolpatcsh Verkinder

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Messages:
    482
    Likes Received:
    0
    They couldn't lay off the slider because the damn ump was giving Lieber pitches that were 6 inches off the plate. When he's getting that, there's no way you can lay off it. Its a strike either way.

    And Ward should've started. Lieber owns righties, and gets hit hard by lefties.
     
  4. Francis3

    Francis3 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 1999
    Messages:
    3,640
    Likes Received:
    1
    Dierker doesnt know what he is doing in the ends. He loves to use his ****ty players.

    Ward I think should get a little more time at the plate, hes on a hot streak and will produce some runs.
     
  5. Francis3

    Francis3 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 1999
    Messages:
    3,640
    Likes Received:
    1
    Mike Williams comes in the 8th and gives up a homer. :eek:
     
  6. Dreamshake

    Dreamshake Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 1999
    Messages:
    1,708
    Likes Received:
    1
    DVauthrin is right. Come the 6th or 7th inning I watched as the catcher set up outside something like 8 or 9 straigt times. I knew what pitch was coming every time. That ugly slider that is a ball. What did all 3 Astro batters do...Swing at it. Where was the communication, where is the realization that that same pitch was coming. Hell my 2 year old daughter knew that pitch was coming every time. Sloppy discipline at the plate.
     
  7. haven

    haven Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 1999
    Messages:
    7,943
    Likes Received:
    14
    gettinbranded:

    The Astros have a better 25 man roster. They're 1 game back. That means they'll probably win the Division. That said, there's no way the Cubs should be where they are. Talent wise, they're 3rd in the division.

    Their success is a testament to their gutsiness. I think your team probably has been more "clutch" this year than the Astros.

    But Sosa isn't playing at MVP level. That's got to be Bonds this year, who's outplayed everyone by a mammoth level. Sosa needs to walk more before he deserves an MVP. He got one he didn't deserve in '98.... I hope he doesn't get another, now.
     
  8. gettinbranded

    gettinbranded Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2000
    Messages:
    1,793
    Likes Received:
    0
    And I'd disagree with you. This is a different bunch, a diffferent kind of team than that which has bumbled around in ineptness for so long. MacPhail and Baylor are baseball people through and through, and these kind of results are their norm, not the exception.

    The Cubs have had innumerable opportunities to fold, to hand over the division, and they havn't yet. They lost Mueller, they lost White, there was the McGriff distraction, Baylor was until recently the most criticized first place manager ever, a eight game losing streak, the Astros taking first place, inconsistant pitching----and they fought and scrapped and kicked their way back onto the top of the heap everytime.

    I see no reason to believe that will change. The Astros thought they finally had it, but got busted up after they gained the crown. The Cubs are going to fight like that till the season is over. And THAT is why they are going to carry the crown----even in the face of Houstons "superior talent".
     
  9. gettinbranded

    gettinbranded Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2000
    Messages:
    1,793
    Likes Received:
    0
    Give the guy some credit, will you? He's 16-5. Either the umps are engaged in a season long conspiracy, or you're a tiny bit off in your appraisal. Lieber has been freakin' unhittable for most of the season. He's good.
     
  10. Tolpatcsh Verkinder

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Messages:
    482
    Likes Received:
    0
    When didn't I give him credit? Did I attempt to trivialize his whole season? I don't think so.

    I said he was getting calls that were way off the plate, which meant that the Astros couldn't lay off the slider.

    <b>Any pitcher who gets that call way off the plate will be nearly unhittable in any one game.</b>

    Oh, and W-L doesn't tell you how good a pitcher is.
     
  11. gettinbranded

    gettinbranded Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2000
    Messages:
    1,793
    Likes Received:
    0

    I think it's a testament to great management and coaching, and an underrated pitching staff.
     
  12. Tolpatcsh Verkinder

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Messages:
    482
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think its a testament to a bunch of players having anamolously good seasons, like the Reds of '99.

    Look where they are now.
     
  13. gr8-1

    gr8-1 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 1999
    Messages:
    7,918
    Likes Received:
    2
    As sure as the seasons change, the Cubs will fold. Even thier fans know it. Of course, you're only a fan because you like to act like a troll here.

    Ideally, for all of us, you would go away. But, that's not gonna happen. Our only pleasure is that you will come back here when the Cubs finish in 3rd place (and they will unless the Bucs get hot), and eat crow.

    I'll say it now, if the Cubs finish ahead of my Stros, I'll kiss your @$$ for a week. That's a bet.
     
  14. haven

    haven Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 1999
    Messages:
    7,943
    Likes Received:
    14
    gettinbranded:

    Win loss record is actually the absolute worst determinant of the vital stats for a starting pitchers value.

    Last year, for example Scott Elarton's ERA was 4.82, but he won 18 games. He got a ton of run support.

    One time Nolan Ryan led the NL with a 2.76 ERA, yet managed to go 8-16.

    Lieber, admittedly, has been pitching very well this year. Just criticizing your method of supporting him, not his actual performance.

    ERA isn't the best measure of pitching either, but it's much better than w/l record :).

    BTW, you put the words superior talent in quotation marks. Do you really want to argue that the Cubs have a better roster than the Astros? It's not even close. The Cubs are having lots of guys with career years. Happens occasionally, like with Cincinatti in '99. But it's a flash in the pan, and next year Sosa will be slugging for a loser, while Houston will still be a contender. Enjoy.

    BTW, I actually think the Astros will beat the Cubs out for the divisional title, but I think that your team has a better chance in the post season. The Astros have three playoff-quality pitchers, but they're all under 25 and it's not even certain that more than one of them will get the nod (Redding, admittedly, isn't ready). The three man rotation will hurt the Astros.

    The Cubs, meanwhile, have both Woods and Lieber to lead the way. So, this year, I do think you guys have a better chance. Watch out next year, though, when Oswalt is a Cy Young candidate, Miller is still consistent, and Redding comes into his own (Redding has more talent than Oswalt, possibly).
     
  15. gettinbranded

    gettinbranded Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2000
    Messages:
    1,793
    Likes Received:
    0
    You better get that lip balm ready...



    If the Stros are so good, how come they havn't taken it before now? Come on...use common sense. It isn't luck---the Cubs are 17 games above .500-----with the exception of a 8 game losing streak, the Cubs are playing the same ball they've played all season. Fold? NEVER! Even 'if' the Astros did take first and will the division---it would only be a matter of a game or so. You won't see these Cubs go into a tailspin and just give it away. It's going to be a fight (and exciting) all the way to the end.

    Cubs come out ahead by 2 to 3.5 games. You heard it here first.
     
  16. gettinbranded

    gettinbranded Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2000
    Messages:
    1,793
    Likes Received:
    0

    Like who?
     
  17. haven

    haven Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 1999
    Messages:
    7,943
    Likes Received:
    14
    Gettinbranded: You're not making much sense.

    Probably because they now have Pedro Astacio and another good reliever. And Jeff Bagwell has been hitting significantly below his career #'s and hasn't "declined as a hitter." Hence, you can expect improvement. Besides, teams wax and wane during different parts of the year. If the Twins are so bad, why did they win earlier in the year? Using your logic, that's not possible. Duh.

    Yes, but the Cubs have been playing aboe their heads ALL season. Look at the # of players on that team that shouldn't be playing as well as they are. Batters, as a season continuse, tend to gravitate towards their natural ability. Maybe it will continue; but the odds are always against it. Sometimes teams do have "miracle" seasons like the Cubs are having right now; but the fact that it's not "normal" is evidenced by the fact that they usually return to earth next year.

    A collapse by either team is always possible. But the Cubs are a much more fragile team. If Sosa or Lieber gets hurt, they're screwed. If anyone Astros player gets hurt, they're fine.
     
  18. gettinbranded

    gettinbranded Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2000
    Messages:
    1,793
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don't count on it...Woods has no control this season---he'll be unhittable after an off-season of mechanics instruction...and the Cubs have tons of great arms down on the farm. We, in fact, were rated as having the best farm system in the majors.
     
  19. haven

    haven Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 1999
    Messages:
    7,943
    Likes Received:
    14
    That's one of the most homer assertions I've ever heard. You do realize that control is one of the biggest problems for young, talented pitchers? And that a great many of them never fix the problem? Saying that because he'll work on it, he'll fix it is ridiculous.

    And your minor leagues might be fine... but Houston has young, successful talent in the majors right now. Good minor leaguers are notorious for not panning out. Why don't we see if your great farm system translates into success?

    If your management doesn't trade it all away from mediocre relievers first :D.
     
  20. gettinbranded

    gettinbranded Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2000
    Messages:
    1,793
    Likes Received:
    0


    I'll ignore the insult.


    Oh please. We were screwed when Rondell went down injured. We were screwed when Hundley didn't recover from his slump. We were screwed when McGriff refused to come on board. Our chemistry was screwed when he did come on board. We were screwed when the Astros took first place.

    Stop that stuff already. When ever the line goes slack, someone else picks it up. Lets talk about the Stros finally getting first place and then folding...losing it right back...
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now