Article about issues in the Muslim world - from a Pakistani media source

And what should we do when two people's reasoning disagree?

 

I thought this woman shouldn't be forgotten, and I confess to thinking that perhaps we should send some B-2's some night to bomb wherever the caves are that these idiot men go to at night to rest up, so they can plan even more misery for their country and its people. Read it and weep:


Ashtiani outrage spurs Iran to commute stoning sentences to hanging



Tehran carries out series of judicial reviews but lawyer fears women who have not attracted media attention will be executed

Saeed Kamali Dehghan guardian.co.uk, Thursday 12 August 2010

The Iranian woman whose sentence to death by stoning sparked an international outcry was put on state-run TV where she told how her cousin had approached her about killing her husband, which in Iran was taken as a confession of adultery and involvement in murder. Her lawyer says she was tortured before the interview.

Iran appears to be quietly changing the sentences of Iranians awaiting death by stoning to hanging after international outcry following the case of Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani, a 43-year-old mother of two.

Mariam Ghorbanzadeh, 25, who was six months' pregnant and miscarried after being beaten up in Tabriz prison this week, was initially sentenced to death by stoning for adultery but her sentence has been commuted to hanging in a rapid judicial review. The decision is thought to have been driven by the Iranian authorities' desire to avoid further international condemnation over the barbaric punishment.

According to Iranian law, officials could not carry out her sentence while she was pregnant. Speaking to the Guardian, her lawyer, Houtan Kian, who represents Mohammadi Ashtiani and two other women kept in Tabriz prison convicted of adultery, said: "My fear is that Iran executes Mariam and those others whose cases have not attracted media attention."

Another of Kian's clients, Azar Bagheri, 19, was imprisoned at the age of 15 after her husband accused her of having an extramarital relationship. Bagheri was on death row for adultery but her sentence was commuted to 100 lashes after Mohammadi Ashtiani's story came to light. Although Bagheri's death penalty was handed down four years ago, the sentence could not be carried out until she was 18 years of old.

"All these women are convicted for adultery but Iran is trying to change their sentences after Sakineh's case has embarrassed them," Kian said.

On Wednesday night, Iran put Mohammadi Ashtiani on a state-run TV programme, in which she appeared to confess to adultery and murder and said she would sue her first lawyer, Mohammad Mostafaei, who has fled Iran after succeeding in highlighting her case and bringing it to international attention. Mostafaei, who crossed the Iran-Turkey border illegally, was arrested in Turkey on immigration charges but was later released and taken to Norway after EU diplomats intervened. Norway has since offered him asylum.

Mohammadi Ashtiani's appearance on TV, with a blurred face, shaky voice and holding a piece of paper in her hand, prompted an immediate reaction from Kian, who condemned the televised "confession" and said she was tortured for two days before agreeing to give the interview. Amnesty International called it "a complete mockery of the judiciary system in Iran".

Kian dismissed Iran's accusations that Sakineh had murdered, or was an accomplice to the murder, of her husband. He said the murderer – who Iran's judiciary admitted four years ago had actually killed her husband – was freed when Sakineh's children pardoned him. The programme also showed two of her relatives saying that Sakineh was a murderer. Last week, in an interview with the Guardian through an intermediary, Mohammadi Ashtiani said she was convicted of adultery and was acquitted of murder.

Iran is believed to have frozen all executions until the end of the holy month of Ramadan. At least 12 Iranian women and three men are awaiting execution by stoning.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/12/iran-stoning-sentences-commuted-ashtiani

 

did you mean "condemn?"

 

i agree, but wonder whether you would condone sending some B-2s some night to bomb the places where these idiot men are building nukes w/ which "stone" the rest of us?

 

There are many many Muslims who would love to see these practices stopped and gov'ts like Iran overthrown.

But this isn't about Islam. Attacking their religion isn't going to help anyone.

People forget that 50 years ago, Christians did a lot of wicked things to Minorities in this very country. And our history is bloody with cultural violence and cruelty as well. Forced sterilizations, slavery, discrimination, lynchings which doesn't include what was done to Native Americans.

That doesn't excuse what is being done over there, it's terrible. But I really find it distasteful how some people on this board use it to attack Islam and Muslims.

This is not an issue of religion, but rather that of modernity. Until people start to get that nothing will change. It's all nice for people to sit back in their chair smoke their pipe and talk about those barbaric Muslims but what's that being used to do - put them down and prevent Muslims Americans from practicing their religion here?

Gross.

 

It's groovy that you've got those opinions, but since I bumped this thread from about a month ago to point out that a god-awful (no pun intended) situation has gotten even worse, instead of starting another thread, which would be the knee-jerk response of several people here I can think of, your post is rather nonsensical. I rarely start threads. If you want to start a thread about the situation regarding this woman in Iran and women in Iran, feel free and I'll post this there, as well. If someone like basso, who I have on ignore, starts one, I won't post in it.

What does your post have to do with my post?

 

Didn't realize you bumped - was responding regarding the original poster (bigot).

 

I find this point interesting. Dont get me wrong, I'm not defending stoning, but "Cruel punishments should be abolished" is a very subjective argument.

Is an individual who gets a life sentence with no opportunity for parole living a dignified life? Isnt he going to spend the majority of his life in a 6 x 8 cage with little to no social interaction, disgusting food, and constant surveillance? what about people who get put into solitary confinement for months at a time?

The point I'm making is that punishing crimes is an enterprise that is inherently cruel. To make such a simplistic emotional appeal is foolish.

I found this comment very telling:

What could have otherwise been considered an honest inquiry attempting to elicit a discussion on human rights in the Muslim world, is in fact, nothing more than an attempt to paint Muslims with a single, broad stroke. Your cynicism implying that a poster defending Muslims is somehow being sycophantic reduces your credibility big time.

 

To be fair, that comment was directed at me. He couldn't debate me properly so he started yelling insults, and when that failed he's resorted to trying to refer back to my days when I was pretending to be a neo-conservative.

Since what I write is no longer right wing satire taken literally, it's easier to say I'm a brown-noser and such than to actually intelligently debate an issue.

It's a common problem amongst today's poorly educated legal citizens that are churned out by our public education system - attack the messenger when you can't overcome the message. I truly do feel for the man / boy and wish he has a chance in life to live up to his moniker and develop some critical thinking skills.

Let's all pray for the poster formerly know as Sir Jackie Childs.

 

Yup, and you don't even know why yet!

 

Agreed. I started what I said by saying that I wasnt condoning or defending stoning.

I dont understand why. It would only disturb me if it was being done in an effort to justify stoning, which it is not. It is simply asking a broader question, which is attempting to define cruel and unusual punishment.

I find solitary confinement to be cruel and inhumane. The psychological impact of it is significant- a total lack of human contact results in a variety of existential crises including suicide and severe depression. One could very easily argue that administering the death penalty is more humane than having someone in solitary confinement for 10+ years.

I respect that, but disagree. I think certain crimes are worthy of capital punishment.

I never said that. I simply stated that 'cruel punishments should be banned' wasnt the best argument. Saying that stoning is objectively more cruel is an argument I'll concede.

Just curious: whats your take on water boarding? what about sleep deprivation?

I'm not as familiar with individual posters posting history. My apologies.

There's very little that can be said about this issue that Mathloom or one of the other posters hasnt already said. There are significant human rights issues in countries around the world, many of which are predominantly Muslim. These problems are a product of political, social, and economic constructs- dictatorial-style regimes, for example, care little about human rights.

I'm not sure how much you know about what is considered 'the Muslim world' today. For example, Hafez Al-Assad, the former president of Syria, laid seige to Hama (a city in Syria) in 82, massacring thousands in the process. His son is the current president of Syria.

Pakistan has large regions within its boarders that are ungovernable; the cities in these regions are run by drug lords or commissions of elders who institute their own, independent rule of law. It is akin to live in the 1800s in some of these cities.

And the average citizen in these countries is unable to do anything. Most have resigned themselves to trying to earn a decent living for them and their families, and within that context, if a random person gets sentenced for stoning, in light of everything else, it doesnt seem like that big of a deal.

Although you've traveled the world, I doubt you could truly appreciate or grasp the lifestyle of someone living in the slums of an economically impoverished nation while enduring political oppression.

 

I hope my sarcasm meter is in need of a tune-up....if not, really Mr. Brightside?

 

Agreed. Interesting story about the kidnapper, I never knew that.

I think perhaps you misunderstood my point. I was speaking for the people living in those lands and speculating as to reasons why we dont see as much of an uproar overseas concerning these things as we do domestically in the west. When people have major problems of their own trying to sustain an existence for themselves and their family, a random instance of stoning being reported doesnt draw their ire the same way major geopolitical events do.