Artest suspension (UPDATE: Artest out for the season)

Sounds good in theory, but because the arena, and not the team, is responsible for security, it probably would never be treated that way.

Arenas will never give up control of security to individual teams because that will mean less revenue for their employees.

And NBA teams will never allow the league to punish them for something they have ZERO control over.

 

Also...the Piston are apparently going to do the only thing that they can do as far as being responsible for the fans....and that is that they will take away season tickets from the offenders and supposedly the guy who threw the cup is banned from the Palace. Other than that, they can't do anything

 

Really??

 

Sorry i meant the pistons as organisation. Not the players. like saitou said, they should do the same as the fifa does with soccer. i think the pistons should play games without fans, or they should not be allowed to play at home. So basically play more road games this year. because they cannot keep players of opposing teams safe.(i do not mean artest, the player that got into the stands are responsible for their own action. But it is terrible that a fan can come on the court. And have a fight with an player. That are the penalty's in soccer, for actions like this(throwing things at players).

ok codell. i agree with you that artest was at fault here, i even agree that he should have a high penalty. So lets agree on that.
But i have a question. you do not thin the pistons are at any fault here? i shall tell you how i see it, you can then say what you think of my view:
The thing i have a problem with is the fact that the pistonfans got on the court. Alot of people who like sports tend to overreact if their team loses(look at this BBS).And even get agressive. Also alot of people like to drink alcohol when they go to a game. If you combine these two things.
A Drunk (or atleast with alcohol in his body) man gets sad and little agressive because he favorite teams loses. he is also just some feet away from the person responsible for his his saddnes. Any normal man would just shout something, or even more normal would just do nothing. But the problem is that some people are not normal. Look at South america, their have been alot of fights between players and fans(with soccer). in europe happens the same somethimes. The team that plays at their homecourt is responsible for the safety of the players of the away team.

the fact that the fans got on the court tying to fight the players of the pacers is terrible. The pistons should control their fans. in Soccer the fans cannot even get close to the players. because of fear for these things.

The thing i really have a problem with is that the pacers are screwed. they lost their best players for a long time. The pistons, Who IMHO are just as responsible, were just lucky. Their biggest rival for the eastern conferance is gone. They should get a penalty to.

i do not knwo if i have said this in this thread or one of the other 100 about this subjectD). but if the nba does nut punishes the pistons for the action of the fans tey give the signal to the fans that they can do whatever they want to piss of the oposing players, because if they get on the court to start a fight if the player hits him the player will get suspended and the fan's team wil not have to play against that player anymore.
Great tactic for the nba finals. if you play against duncan, just get a fan on the court to start a fight against duncan, and duncan will get suspended. in that way you can win the title.

p.s. i do not think i ever had a post this long.

 

It doesn't matter whether they have direct control over the security, and I'm sure that in future cases, teams will be more demanding of the arena security. They could even do simple background checks on season ticket holders too. Not saying it will be fullproof, but more risk management strategies can be employed, and the team management will be more diligent in doing such things if there are heavy consequences for bad fan behaviour. Another thing that happens often in soccer, is you see management pleading with their fans to behave, reasoning with them that their bad behaviour leads to consequences for the team (instead of blaming the other team's fans or in this case it would be players). Simple things like that help.

The detroit "team" doesn't play in a vacuum. They play for their fans, and their fans are a very real part of the club. The fans have a vested interest in (1) watching their team (2) watching their team do well. Taking away their home games takes away (1) and threatens (2). Taking away home games will also make the teams take more steps to ensure safety.

 

arno_ded:

Lets break down what all the fans did wrong:

1) Fan throws cup at Artest

Security solution: Don't supply fans with anything that can be thrown or station a security officer in front of every fan.

The NBA would go out of business if they had to do this with the loss of revenue from concessions and the additional cost of supplying 20,000 security officials per game.

So nothing can be done to preven #1

2) 2nd fan throws up at Artest

Security solution: Same as 1)

3) Fan in the stands punches Artest from behind

Secuirty solution: Get security to the area quicker to isolate the bystanders from the fight (in this case, i don't know if this could have been done quickly enough to keep that guy from punching Artest

4) Fan in stands punches Fred Jones from behind

Security solution: Same as 3)

5) Fan throws chair

Security solution: Bolt or chain chairs together.

6) Fans go onto court

Security solution: Eliminate all seats within a designated distance from the court and have security form a perimeter around the court if there is a player/fan confrontation either on the court or in the stands

7) Fans throw stuff on the players when they are leaving the court

Security solution: Just like 1) and 2), there isn't much that can be done to prevent it (even if there are procedures in place to discourage it).


Looking at all that, 1) happens regardless of whether Artest goes into the stands or not. There is a high probability that 2-7 doesn't happen if Artest doesn't go into the stands.

and THAT is why Artest got the biggest punishment of anyone because his actions or lack of action would have prevented this whole mess.

 

This only works if a) Every fan that sits in the first few rows is a season ticket holder (lets remember that alot of season tickets are held by corporations that use them for promotional purposes and are given away) and b) If you jack up ticket prices enough to cover the cost of the background checks.

I believe Larry Brown did try to do that, and I've seen several instances where couches went on the PA system and told their fans to calm down.

Anyone remember Sam Wyche?? "you don't live in Cleveland, you live in Cincinnati !!!!!" ...classic moment

Again, Ill make two points here:

1) The NBA will never take away a home game for a team's fan throwing a cup of beer at a player because that is impossible to prevent

2) The NBA will never take away a home game from a team where the visiting team initiated the riot

 

1) Fan throws cup at Artest

I think this happens because of a lack of deterrence. This lack comes from a feeling of anonymity and impunity derived (1) a more chaotic situation created by the scuffle on the court and (2) a public perception that security isn't watching or won't actually punish those who throw things.

The solution here, I think is to not have security who are supposed to be watching fans breaking up on-court fights. Plus, be sure to toss out fans for every infraction (they could dedicate cameras to watching fans for video evidence), withdraw season tickets and ban unruly fans. If players were confident that security would adequately deal with jerks in the stands, then they wouldn't have to take things into their own hands (would Green have been banned if Artest didn't charge the stands?). And, don't get into fights on the court -- they set a bad example for everyone else.

After that, the only problem was escalation which was caused by the fact that fans and players can physically move between court and seats. This would be less likley to happen in hockey because a player cannot easily go after a fan because of the wall. Likewise, when security broke down, fans would not have gotten out onto the rink. I don't think the NBA wants to give up that intimacy, so they'll continue to run a risk of escalation.

 

Codell.

i think it is fair that Artest got the highest penalty ot everybody, because he was the main cause of this, But just not the only one.
If you look at what you wrote you would almost agree with the fact that you can do nothing about it. But i think that it is stupid that the pistons get out of this with almost no punishment. Like i said the pistons should get punishment for not being able to keep the opponents safe in their arena. So i think the nba should Punish the pistons with:
1 A couple of games without fans. (yes it wil cost them alot of money, but then maybe the fan's wil think before throwing things at players.and running on the court)
or
2 A couple of home games played in the arena of the opponents(i like this idea better, but the problem is it is hard to decide wich team will have the luck to play more home games).

like i said we agree with the fact that the Artest should be punished the most. But i also think that if the na want to set an example with artest they should also set an example with the pistons (fans).

But i get the feeling we are not gonna agree on these points.

 

Just my 2 cents about security, I don't see it mentioned anywhere:

Security is prepared to prevent fans from going into the court. They are prepared to deal with unruly fans. But they are not prepared to prevent players from going into the stand. I mean, what businesses hire security to prevent their employees from assaulting the customers? That's why when the players went into the stand threatening to beat up people there, the security people were taken by surprised and all hell broke loose.

 

The problem is that they did a LOT more than throwing that one cup of beer. Just because Artest went into the stands doesn't absolve them of guilt of the other stuff they did. If we're only into punishing the initiators of the riot, then that fan and Wallace are as guilty (if not more guilty) than Artest. Fans whose safety were not threatened joined in. Fans ran onto the court to pick fights. Fans from everywhere were hurling stuff onto the court. They too could have used some rationality and restraint. Those that joined in aren't any less guilty than Jackson and O'neal. If I use your line of reasoning, I could make a case for not punishing Artest. But I don't, I think Artest needs to be punished. But so do the fans.

 

Their opponents were safe until their opponents decided to take the law into their own hands.

 

JV,

I think there is a deterant that has always been in place: The risk of ejection and/or banning from the arena and the risk of criminal charges. In fact, don't most arenas make this annoucements before games? I think thats why most of the time, something like this is treated as an isolated incident because most fans in the arena aren't going to do it.

I agree about the identification of fans, and a camera angle on each section of the arena seating might be a good start. If not, its impossible to keep an eye on 20,000 fans at once. You almost have to depend on the good fans pointing out the bad ones.

All in all though, if a fan wants to throw something bad enough, then no deterant is going to stop him.

 

What a lot of you guys who are blaming the fans are missing is that they WILL be dealt with. The guy who threw the cup, for instance, is having his tickets revoked and being banned from the palace...and the other fans who did this will be as well.

The fans were wrong...DEAD WRONG...but I have been to games where people throw stuff on the court/field. I was at the snowball game at giants stadium...people in the stands pointed out the offenders and they were dealt with. The players/coaches and officials were getting pelted with rock hard snowballs and no one came into the stands.

I have also been at Yankee and Shea stadiums countless times when people threw stuff onto the field. Security dealt with it and the offenders were removed....again, no one came into the stands...the player simply pointed out where he THOUGHT it came from and security handled it from there.

Artest got what he deserved (as did the rest of the Pacers and Ben Wallace) and the fans who got involved will get what they have coming as well.

 

arno: No love for Bergkamp? And I think va der Vaart is going to be a star.

 

codell: that is true, but still the pistons should be able to prevent the fans to get on the court.(but you are right it was a bizar situation). In this case 2 side fought so 2 sides should be punished. The fans did alot of thing even after the player went through the tunnel. Do you agree with me that the fans also acted terrible? i think we will have to disagree on the fact if the pistons are to blame here. I do not think we wil be able to change the others opinion.

NJRocket, i was wondering in what way the fans will be punished, i haven't heard of it until now. But wil the fans be able to sue the nba player? that would be wrong(especially the fans that got on the court)

saitou i will add bergkamp,(don't know why he isn't on hte list already). Van der Vaart was a Great player And talent 3 years ago, but he didn't improve since, so now i''m no to sure how good he wil be. Robben is the best dutch player at this moment

 

arno-ed,

Yes, that fans did act terribly, and yes, they are to blame.

Artest could have stopped it all though right after the first cup was thrown. The crowd wasn't going to riot with itself.

 

I'm no lawyer, but I believe you can meet force with force when defending yourself (i.e. if u get hit with a fist, you can hit back)....but since O Neal, Jackson and Artest didn't pick up cups of gatorade and throw them back, I would imagine they opened themelves up to some lawsuits.

Side note - I read Bill Simmons column on this (which was pretty funny)...but he pointed out in the article that the big black guy in the brown sweater who was hitting fred jones (i think it was jones) was actually a member of Wallace's security team who flipped out when Wallace's kid (who was with the big black guy) got ran into by Jackson or someone other player....and the kid you saw crying was Ben Wallace's kid.

 

i agree

 

Now that, is interesting.