To make things clear - you DON'T find the deliberate killing of over 3000 innocent civilians by a terrorist evil?
i don't find either side evil, just infected with a misdirected passion and vengeful rage against fellow men. it is the same rage that plunged the world into war, killed the jews, motivated osama, and today plagues America, China, India, Chechnya, Middle East, and particularly the Jews themselves (they euphemistically call it Remembering Shoah). it is this rage, this hate, when it has gone through so many iterations of malice and vengeance that the infected lose all sight of root causes, which leads to evil. this is why i disparage the concept of Shoah. it's been abused to justify so much malice, that the people have lost sight of the message it should have brought: tolerance, compassion, harmony and reconciliation. when i see mr. noah's article, the image that comes to mind is not one of compassion or even rational morality or justice. instead i see a brain-washed little boy screaming "kill the beast!" people just need to stop sinning and avenging, and start forgiving and redeeming. =================== do you find Osama to be unprovoked? did America play no part in this half-century-long madness? if you answer yes, then indeed Osama would be evil. unfortunately i don't find it to be the case.
That isn't the point. My point is, if you had relatives that were killed during the Holocaust, as I have, you would feel a wee bit differently than you do regarding Jewish groups hunting down former Nazis and bringing them to justice.
What is his provocation, Lil? His only consistently stated 'provocation' since he began his war against the US was to remove us infidels from Saudi Arabia. So infidel, does that seem like a valid provocation? The fact that he considers you and yours to be too disgusting to set foot in his holy land...is valid provocation? Brilliant.
i see your point now. i think you're right. vengeance is quite understandable. yet, if poetic justice exists, one day, all those arabs persecuted and tortured by israel are going to rise up and hunt down each and every former israeli army/intelligence officer/operative who organised, participated, or even simply turned a blind eye to israeli misdeeds (assasination, torture, massacre, ethnic cleansing, etc. etc. etc.) and all descendents and friends of these "evil-doers" will be forced to publically renounce them, pay billion dollar indemnities for them, and be forced to not even mention their names, except in shame and disgust (reminds me of images from red china during the cultural revolution). and the same for all the nations in the world. chechnya imposes a reign of terror on russia. china on japan. tibet on china. the entire world on europe. the indians and mexicans on america. etc. etc. etc. what a great world that'll be! my point is, do you think there should be no limit and no end to vengeance? when is enough enough?
israel uses the same argument to defend its possession and willingness to use nuclear weapons against its neighbors. its persecution of arabs. its violation of U.N. resolutions. "in defense of its homeland". how brilliant is that?
Take about hate, eh? Whats that tone I hear in your voice? Convicted felons have restricted rights for the remainder of their life. What is done to people responsible for the horrible massacre of millions of people...half a race? You not only say...'forgive and forget'...but you berate the victims for what they feel is justice. And is that justice so unfair? Are they murdering the Nazis' families? No...they don't want them in high-profile political positions...well how unacceptable of them. Who the f*ck do you think you are? Granted, forgiveness is a good thing, but its up to the victims who were incarcerated, who lost their families, to make that decision for themselves. Sorry, but you're not a high-enough authority to demand that from them, or ridicule them for what they consider justice. OMG! They're hounding those poor Nazis! How dare they! You show your true colors their, pard. BTW, are you going to tell women who were raped a few years ago that you're sick of their whining and to get over it? Please enlighten us. You say this is no longer about morality and justice, SO SHARE YOU WONDERFUL INSIGHT WITH US. What would be a moral and justifiable response? And FWIW, you can answer 'forgive' again...if you know in your heart that you would simply tell police to release someone who had just raped and killed your child...because you forgive them.
Non-responsive. Answer the question. (Apparently, you just tie all things Jewish together into your own personal hatred.)
Cohen & others...I'm sure you can read between the lines here, absolutely no reason to debate this assclown. Just let it go.
No doubt, Buck. I usually take one shot to illuminate the issue, then move on. I'm just surprised when it's someone who's been here for a while. Oh well.
Get off the computer John Walker Lindh. We need to bring all murderers to justice. Irregardless if they are 80 years old or have been recent upstanding citizens, they are still murderers.
in crying out against hatred, i'm called a hater. what can i say? Waldheim was cleared of all charges, by the CIA of all people. So this is a perfect example of how this Shoah business is carried to excess. Why can't former Nazis serve in high positions? Waldheim's excellent, productive record as Austrian diplomat, U.N. Secretary-General and Austrian President, promoting world peace among other things, don't seem to justify your position. i'd like to ask the same question of you. no. it is not up to the victims. it is up to the public, of which i'm a member, to impose limits on justice and grant leniency. for Shoah, the jews themselves can hate the nazis until kingdom come for all i care. It is their malicious influence on the american public, promoting and disseminating their endless hatred as an acceptable, if not universal, value which i find distasteful. you find cases of this all the time. rapists and murderers being released to their original victims' families' discontent. and in fact, "get over it!" is precisely what the U.S. justice system tells these haters. people deserve a second chance. and all people deserve forgiveness. I don't have to respond to this. I never claimed to be a saint. But if you really want insight, consider reading the Bible. Sorry i offended and infuriated you and others on this board. discussing sensitive topics like this is always tough. it's human nature we're fighting here. and in the end, it can destroy us all.
you answered your own question in your original post. as for the israel example, i just brought it up as an example YOU can readily relate to. i freely admit my faults, but hating jews simply isn't one of them. if you prefer, we can use America's evisceration of Afghanistan and Iraq to "keep terrorists out of America" as an equally valid analogy. my point is, defending one's homeland IS a valid cause. Osama perceives a violation of Arab lands by Israel and its champion, America. His perception is coincidently shared by nearly everyone in the Arab world, and many across the world. unless there is some sort of Arab mass delusion, it's simply Americans being blind to their own government's faults. It is this same self-imposed blindness which makes you think Osama is "unprovoked". The U.S. govt sins. The victims takes revenge on the American people. What's so hard to understand about it? "Had it coming" is precisely what the rest of the world thinks. I only regret not being able to do anything to prevent it as an American. Vengeance only begets more vengeance. The only way out, if we cannot prevent sinning to begin with, is to forgive.
Lil...what you call "crying out against hatred", others percieve as "perpetuating hatred". I feel sorry for you. Your life must really suck to be filled with so much hate. I'm glad I am not you, and I hope you find a way to lose the hate you have been spewing in this thread. Out.
RM, I mean this as no disrespect, but relatives dying in the Holocaust are no more sacrosanct than relatives dying in WWII, or Korea, or Vietnam, or Iraq. Their deaths are a tragedy and a shame. By my 19th birthday, 5 of the guys I graduated with in high school were dead in Vietnam. Then I got to go myself. I know almost 50 names on that wall, not a relative who died before I was born, but living, breathing people I knew. How long am I to carry that grudge? Should I be hunting down the Vietnamese who did it? What is the statute of limitations on post war hatred? Isn't that exactly why we find the Arabs so unreasonable? They won't get over the creation of Israel, which happened how long ago. 3 years AFTER the holocaust. This line that "if you had someone who ..." is bogus. That is exactly the person who lacks perspective. I don't mind telling you, I carried a prejudice against Vietnamese until about 10 years ago. I just couldn't get rid of it - didn't want to. I wanted to carry that hate forward. Then someone asked me to help a Vietnamese couple, and I could feel the hair go up on my neck at the mere mention. But I knew for that reason I had to do it. It was a blessing, because they were the nicest people I've ever met. So sweet and good. And THAT act redeemed me. It freed me. Don't you see how tied together these things are? You hate the Nazis, the Palestinians hate the Israelies, and the grudgefest keeps killing all involved. Hate is self defeating. Human beings are human beings, and being a Nazi 6 decades ago is no different than being a Communist 6 decades ago: not that relevant to who you are now. People are stupid and idealistic in youth, and they outgrow that. We all have dead relatives and friends who died unjustly at someone's hands. Whether it was the Holocaust or some other heinous event, learning from it is more important than satisfying a need for retribution. And while we're on it, aren't the Christians who hate Jews doing exactly the same thing? Forgiveness is not just a word.
let me post a reminder - don't get me confused with this Osama lover. ain't me. I would personally shoot the SOB (Osama, not the poster), and I'm not kidding. I support Israel's existence, I support their stance against those who attack them, but I think they are excessive and unreasonable at times, and I find that self defeating. I will hasten to add, every time there is an attack like this latest, I want and support an immediate reprisal. I wish they could be more efficient and less general, however. Every time you hurt those who weren't involved, you create worse enemies.
Friendly Fan, That is one of the best posts I have ever read on this board, however, the Jews were not at war against the Germans, they were victims of one man's vision of Utopia. The Vietnamese weren't systematically trying to anniahilate Americans for the sake of the so-called betterment of their race, they were at war. You are right, the hate has to be let go, I totally agree, but you are comparing it to a totally different situation. I don't want it to sound like I don't think your hate was as strong, or less justified, I'm sure thousands of veterans go through the same anguish you felt for all those years, hell the South held a grudge against the north for about 100 years after the Civil War. Lastly, for the most part, I don't get the feeling that Jewish people walk around holding the grudge of the Holocaust. These men were war criminals, and should be punished, as Johnheath wrote, for the sake of justice.
