I doubt it. Why would it kill the soldier's morale that a few convicted rapists and murderers were being held to account? I strongly doubt that most of our soldiers are supportive of those actions, they understand that justice had to be served.
I'm not saying that they would be supportive of their actions, they wouldn't be supportive of the army throwing them to the mercy of the people of iraq.
Exactly. We need to try, convict and execute these men (if guilty) ourselves. We need to let our army know they will not be at the mercy of a foreign government -- but will be at our mercy. We can't let foreign governments determine justice in our ranks, and possibly abuse that power. All the same, the crime sounds like one for which the death penalty is appropriate, for both the crime itself, and for the disservice it has done the USAF.
They simply deserve nothing short of the most painful and drawn out death possible, once convicted in court. These "men" are scum. There is no excuse.
amen. that's exactly what's been rattling around in my head since i read this. dehumanizing of everyone involved.
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
this story made me come close to tears...can't imagine what the family must have gone through…to know your teenage daughter is getting raped in your own home...then to see each member of your family get shot…that so cruel.
ever since details of this story came to light I've been shocked. more than anything by the fact that it doesn't surprise me one bit.
not exactly sure, but standards must be raised. the american military should be the benchmark for all nations in the world, but if scandals like these continue to pop up, we are in bad shape.
I'm gonna be the devil's advocate here. Ever since the beginning, Americans are shocked that their own soldiers are incapable of committing atrocities such as these. When it does happen, as wnes labelled it, it is "extremely isolated and rare." Isolated and rare compared to whom? Americans have done it in every war it has ever fought. But yet, it is always convenient to point at "a few bad apples" and imply that it is not widespread. That is the most convenient excuse. When it happens, people are "shocked." And they are shocked time and time again to the extent that I'm wondering when people won't be "shocked" any more. See, I'm running this theory here, that the Americans are smart and Hitler was dumb. If he had kept Himler et al in the dark and portray him as a minority of the Nazi Party, (of course, him winning the war would have also helped) perhaps we won't be portraying him as the greatest murderer of all time. And let's be quite honest, objectively, he isn't quite yet. Now, this isn't a flame post, nor is it intended to show how Americans are worse than everybody else. But I think it's about time some people get off their high horse and realize that the US Army isn't any better than any other foreign armies. As for due process, given the army's past history, it is not exactly very good at airing its own dirty laundry.
I don't beleive this comparison... ...is an effective way to make this point: We're not talking about the systematic extermination of a region of peoples. We're talking about young Americans, under the influence of a pressure and fear the severity of which we sitting behind our moniters can't possible comprehend, committing heinous crimes. Not to excuse these men or undermine the severity of the crime but I think these acts are symptoms of the hyper stressful situation these men are in, the anger and fear fermenting inside of these soldiers coupled with the vulnerability of Iraqi citzens around them. Its sad, its unfortunate, its the reality of being at war.
This type of incident along with the larger incidents in haditha are one of the reasons why you don't start unnecessary wars. Our country still pays a price for unreported incidents like the two above. The soldiers who took part and even on-lookers often suffer post truamatic stress disorder with its attendant rages, drug and alcohol problems, marital difficulties and lost work place productivity etc.
i don't mean to be annoying, but the thread starter even mentioned the existing discussion on the front page of the d & d. we've been talking about this subject for a while. mods can we can we have a merge or something?
Why is it we allow ourselves to abide by the same low standards for which we deride our enemies? We're Americans, damn it. We don't lower our standards because it's more convenient. We raise them to exemplify what we're fighting for. If we want to be the "Good Guys," we'd better play to a higher standard than the "Bad Guys."
I have to agree with wnes and glynch here. I don't find this story too shocking as I'm sure there's many more incidents like this that go unreported. It's the sad reality of war when you put power into the hands of young men, possibly away from home for the first time in their lives, some possibly holding even their first jobs, fighting a war that in no way benefits them personally. The underlying problem here is the unecessary warfare to begin with, especially in a circumstance where you're supposedly trying to "win the hearts and minds" of the Middle East. This has nothing to do with the U.S. Army or any lack of leadership/training on their part - these incidents take place at the hands of every military. You just can't put yourself in that position to begin with when we have so little to gain and so much to lose.
Dude, what are you talking about? We already have a shortage as it is. Our standards are fine. We just need to stop invading sovereign nations (or financing the invasion through others).
Isolated and rare compared to the much more prevailing heavy-handedness in dealing with Iraqis, the shoot-first-ask-later attitude, the willingness to kill 1 suspect at the expense of 100 innocent lives, of which the Haditha Massacre is the epitome. The guys who did the raping and killing of the 14-year old girl and then killing and burning her whole family are indeed the few bad apples. They are not the product of failed military policy/training or the frustrating occupation. War could be a factor but hardly a deciding one. You assign these men in any other places, military or civilian, even during peace time, they are likely to commit the similar crime when they feel "bored" and their violent primal urges take control of their minds and bodies, if opportunity arises. In the words of Red in Shawshank Redemption, "You have to be human first. They don't qualify." I doubt anyone (including the most warmongering hayes) here would be keen to find excuses for their actions, well, maybe someone still enjoys the suffering of "w**** of Babylon." Haditha is a different story.
The latest... Soldier avoids execution for rape http://www.insidebayarea.com/news/ci_4677003 FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. — A soldier was sentenced Thursday to 90 years in prison with the possibility of parole for conspiring to rape a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and kill her and her family. Spc. James P. Barker, one of four Fort Campbell soldiers accused in the March 12 rape and killings, pleaded guilty Wednesday and agreed to testify against the others to avoid the death penalty. Under the plea agreement, Barker got a life sentence but will not serve more than 90 years in prison, Anderson said. He will be eligible for parole in 20 years. Barker, 23, showed no reaction when the sentence was read. Afterward, he smoked a cigarette outside as a bailiff watched over him. He grinned as reporters passed by. Barker wept during his closing statement, accepted responsibility for the rape and killings and said violence he encountered left him embittered toward Iraqis. "I want the people of Iraq to know that I did not go there to do the terrible things that I did," Barker said. "I do not ask anyone to forgive me today." The killings in Mahmoudiya, a village about 20 miles south of Baghdad, were among the worst in a series of alleged attacks on civilians and other abuses by military personnel in Iraq. "To live there, to survive there, I became angry and mean. The mean part of me made me strong on patrols. It made me brave in firefights," Barker said. "I loved my friends, my fellow soldiers and my leaders, but I began to hate everyone else in Iraq." Some of Barker's fellow soldiers testified on his behalf, describing weeks with little support and sleep while manning distant checkpoints. "The bottom line is they were not giving the soldiers the tools, were not giving the soldiers the combat stress treatment, were not giving them enough troops on the ground to fulfill their mission," defense attorney David Sheldon said after the sentencing. Capt. William Fischbach, the lead prosecutor, told the court that such conditions were no excuse for Barker, who led the group to the family's house, and that no one deserved such unspeakable horrors. "This burned-out corpse that used to be a 14-year-old girl never fired bullets or lobbed mortars," Fischbach said as he held pictures of the crime scene. The defendants are accused of burning the girl's body to conceal the crime. Sgt. Paul E. Cortez, 24, has deferred entering a plea, and Pfc. Jesse V. Spielman, 22, will be arraigned in December. Both are members of the 101st Airborne Division along with Barker and could face the death penalty if convicted. Pfc. Bryan L. Howard, 19, also deferred entering a plea at his arraignment in October. He does not face the death penalty. Steven Green, 21, pleaded not guilty last week to civilian charges including murder and sexual assault. The former private was discharged for a "personality disorder" before the allegations became known, and prosecutors have yet to say whether they will pursue the death penalty against him. In earlier testimony, Barker described in detail how he raped Abeer Qassim al-Janabi with Cortez and Green before Green killed the girl, her younger sister and parents. "Cortez pushed her to the ground. I went towards the top of her and kind of held her hands down while Cortez proceeded to lift her dress up," he said. "Around that time I heard shots coming from a room next door." Barker did not name Spielman and Howard as participants in the rape and murders but said Spielman went along to the house knowing what the others intended to do. Prosecutors said Howard had been left behind at a checkpoint.
