This is a point that isn't brought up enough. If we still had Gay, we'd also still have Stro's useless a**, and very well may have never gotten Scola as a result.
Rudy Gay Memphis Grizzlies Position: F-G Height: 6-8 Weight: 222 College: Connecticut Player file | Team stats 2007-08 Statistics PPG 19.7 RPG 6.1 APG 1.7 SPG 1.5 BPG 0.9 FG% 0.470 FT% 0.781 3P% 0.394 MPG 37.3 Shane Battier Houston Rockets Position: F Height: 6-8 Weight: 220 College: Duke Player file | Team stats 2007-08 Statistics PPG 8.5 RPG 4.9 APG 1.8 SPG 1.2 BPG 1.2 FG% 0.421 FT% 0.694 3P% 0.376 MPG 35.6 Considering Rudy Gay is 22 years old, and that he more than doubles Battiers scoring,Shoots a better FG%FT%3P%, gets slightly more steals and rebounds,He is also a far superior finisher. I would say he is a better "tangible" player. Battier has him on hustle and smarts on the defensive end, along with his tireless work ethic. It is impossible to judge battier's value, but I believe Rudy Gay's more all around game/and ability to create his own shot puts him a step higher......
I found Simmon's description absolutely perfect in describing Gay and the Rocket's situation. It's funny how everyone cheered when we drafted Gay were the same people who were ecstatic when we traded for Eddie Griffin. And I admit, I was one of them. But the Griffin experience also made me at least realize why we made the Gay trade.
This thread devolved into into a Gay-Battier debate pretty fast. Thabo isn't anything special, but I'd still like to see him on the rockets. He plays solid defense and rebounds well. He'll never be much of an offensive threat, but I'm sure he can play a similar role to Battier or Tayshaun Prince. He already handles the ball better than Shane, if he can develop a jumpshot it's a bonus. Since Skiles was fired on Christmas Eve, Thabo has basically averaged the same numbers as Bonzi on the season. If we can get that for cheap and develop it, we go for it.
Yeah I was amazed at how fast! LOL I was trying to open a dialog about Thabo! I think part of the problem is the chaos that is Chicago. To be perfectly honest, under JVG he probably would have done fine... and developed an outside shot so that he could get on the floor. I can't see where he would have been as useful to us last year as Shane was, so that's why I titled the thread the way I did. Eventually I think he will become a better player, but in the short term he was and still is a project.
A lot of the people say that it is irrelevant whether we planned to pick Gay. The fact that we gave up the pick that could have been Gay means the trade was a bad trade. Here's the logic: 1. Because we did not think Gay was worth the #8 pick, our talent evaluation sucks. 2. Because we traded that pick, which could have been Gay, for Battier: it was a bad trade. (Let's forget about getting rid of Swift, for simplicity's sake.) 3. Because it was a bad trade, Battier sucks. The fallacy of this logic is that it asserts that #1, #2, and #3 are logically related, which is not true. Had the Rockets thought Gay was the best choice for the 8th pick, #1 and #2 would have been related. But that's not the case. The fact that we passed up Gay at #8 has nothing to do with how good the trade was. It may be true that passing up Gay was a bad decision (from hindsight, see Simmons' comment). Other teams ahead of us, except Portland and Seattle, made the same bad decision. The trade was not Gay for Battier. It was Thabo for Battier. And I am indeed glad that we ended up with Battier, not Thabo. The draft decision was bad. The trade decision was good. Those are two different decisions. It is not fair to compare Gay with Battier to evaluate the trade. Simmons' comment suggests that maybe not taking Gay was not such a bad decision after all. Gay is a rare exceptional case in light of many other similar cases in NBA history. He was a BIG gamble. several teams refrained from making that gamble. Memphis did and seems to have come out a winner. But that was still a BIG gamble. And their wager was Battier, a very important piece in their core. BTW, point #3 was even worse. Why do you want to hate Battier for a trade he had no control over?
A couple things people on the "keep Gay" side fail to realize or ignore for the very fact that their arguments get destroyed: 1. Rockets manage realized Gay was not going to get playing time under JVG. Add that to his already questionable work ethic, and the question that comes up is: Why draft a kid that might not play and as a result, might not put in the work to develop his skills in practice, etc? Then what you would have is another SF version of Stromile Swift. 2. Rockets management did not want to keep bone-headed Swift around. He was a big money mistake and they quickly realized that mistake. I am almost 100% sure that Swift had something to do with Rockets not wanting Gay. Remember, to everyone in the league, Swift was considered a high potential guy that just need a change to get his act together. Real well that change worked out for him. 3. Battier allows T-Mac to lay off the other teams best player. Imagine what happens if we let T-Mac and his injury prone body run after Kobe, LeBron, Manu, etc for 40 minutes on top of the ball-handling and scoring he already does for the team. Its bad enough we have to deal with Rafer/Head getting killed by the other teams guards, it wouldn't be a good sight seeing T-Mac's lazy ass get killed by teams with great wing players. Let's put this all behind us once and for all. To be honest, I never wanted Gay on the team because he was going to be useless. Gundy wasn't going to play him and we sure as hell didn't need another bench warmer next to Novak. So please don't bring up this "what if" crap because those are the worst arguments in the world. What if we never trade Jefferson, Collins, and our other 1st rounder for Griffin? What if we had lost that last game and had a higher pick? What if we had never traded MJ for Rafer? What if Sura wasn't hurt? Give me a break with this crap!
I think this is an important point. I never really considered Gay as a strong possibility before the draft (most of us were hyped up on Roy or Brewer) because he didn't seem to fit. If he was to become the starting SF, that means T-Mac plays SG. That's just a bad defensive combination at your wing positions. Another possibility is Gay moves to PF, but that's clearly out of position for him and again you suffer heavily on defense. Knowing what JVG was about as a coach, I just don't see how Gay would have gotten significant minutes alongside T-Mac. I think that had a lot to do with why he wasn't seriously considered.
The funny thing about this is that Gay was considered a very good college defender. He shut down many good college players, both in the post and on the wing. His negatives were that he took plays off on offense, and was shut down pretty easily when a team made a concerted effort to do so. His lateral quickness while certainly good enough in College is well below average for starting wings in the NBA, and that's how he gets exposed so easily on defense now. (That and a complete disregard for shutting down the baseline.) Sefalosha is a decent player, but not a good one. The guy I wanted, Patrick O'Bryant is in a no-win situation under Don Nelson. Still, all in all, the Rockets got a very good player out of the weakest draft in several years. I think that's a big positive.
This is just a big lie that keeps going and going. People were not down on Gay because of his work ethic, it was because they thought he lacked the "kobe" gene to take over games. Rudy Gay 2006 NBA draft bio
And some of you absolutely slay me by using Bill Simmons, a comedian for God's sake, to back up your points that Rudy Gay has such a horrible work ethic. This is coming from the same guy that said Yao would never be any good in the NBA - yea, he really knows what he is talking about. Anyway, read my sig - nothing else needs to be said about it. The Rockets were told by Jerry West to bend over and to grab their ankles and then the Grizzlies did the rest. End of story.
^^^^ Manny, THIS quote of yours, not your sig, almost made me put you on ignore. I really hate to read people who say, "I am right and you are wrong. Nothing else needs to be said about it." This kind of mentality is what kills this board, you know. So next time, please don't whine about the quality of the forum being down, blah blah blah. I expected better from you.
I still believe the Rockets talked themselves out of taking the best player available. I still think Rudy Gay and Tmac in the same lineup would've been a match up nightmare for most teams.
He's poking me in the eye. I posted almost the same thing in the last longing-for-the-empty-numbers-that-Rudy-Gay-puts-up thread.
Yeah, he was too passive. Call it lack of motivation, call it lazy, call it doesn't work hard on the court, call it whatever you want. That WAS the reason he dropped. On talent alone, people had thought he'd go #1 at the beginning of the season. We were in "win now" mode last season. Do you really believe that Gay would've contributed more than Battier to our championship aspirations LAST SEASON? Especially with JVG as the coach? Sounds delusional to me. I'm not citing Simmons as an authority here, I only used that quote because I thought he put it very well. I don't need Simmons or anyone else to tell me Gay looked lackluster in his last college season. Hence, your point about Yao is irrelevant to me. Again, GIVE ME A LIST of players who dropped because of motivation problems and then succeeded in the NBA.
