One point further... Freedom of choice also means the freedom to choose to disagree with the choices of one's government no matter what the situation, outcome or degree of popularity. It is the very definition of freedom in our society. Feel free to respond.
You never should have argued in the first place. Once again, did you read the entire post? If you did then you would remember this: "For the record, I am not trying to be insensitive about anyone's physical condition. I just feel that we should all be thankful that we live in this country and not Afghanistan, Cambodia, or some 3rd world nation. If your country needs you, then you should be there for it. At least that's how I see it." I later in a response to Crisco admitted that I may have crossed the line. Maybe I need to attend sensitivity training or maybe I'm just a little emotional right now, but it's not worth it to me to have people on this BBS be upset with me when all they know about me is what I post here. I will try to show more tact in the future, but it would be nice if you read an entire post before you resort to ridiculous name-calling. However, I'll bite the bullet and tell you that I was out of line . I know it may surprise you and some people here but I'm very far from being a staunch conservative who loves the military and going to war.
OK, Manny, please tell me where I called you, or anyone other "opponent," names. If I recall, it was others who called people p*****s, cowards (a post which you seconded) and then you calling me a loser. I did read your full post and did see your "disclaimer" at the bottom...however, this thread was about serving in the military...fighting for your country. My response was an attempt at extreme exaggeration in defense of a physical condition of Jeff's (which you compared coldly to a hangnail...and then later apologized). Anyway, I have had people make racist comments towards me, and then later say, "no offense." Is that supposed to mean that they did not mean it? I do appreciate your subsequent apologies to some, and I am only trying to present "my side." I do not, however, appreciate your continued condecension in proclaiming that I "never should have enetered" this, nor do I understand your accusation of me name-calling. "NOTE TO SELF: Make sure all future posts are done in a way that can be understood by the Rimbauds of the world. " This is something with which I struggle every day...unfortunately, I am too stupid to understand myself. This causes a lot of problems.
WHAT?? You can't be serious! Does this ring a bell? "Yeah, Jeff, quite being so weak...just because you had to be mostly on your back for many months and cannot really run, I am sure basic training would be easy for you. The military won't care if your back goes out and renders you unable to walk in the middle of a skirmish. You can still help. Loser." What am I supposed to think? Are you telling me that you are calling Jeff a loser? Or do you just randomly say loser after various posts? Please explain yourself on that one. Where did I ever mention Jeff's name? Where did I ever mention anyone's name? If you don't believe me then read my post: "Timing, Amen, brother! I am appalled by some of these people, too. They all want to tell us why we are in the situation we are in, yet when push comes to shove or when the going gets tough, they want to throw in the towel. Yea, we know about your bad back and everything. It would be nice if people here even if they had some health condition would still go if called. Let the military heads make that decision--don't automatically assume that hangnail is going to get that medical discharge. I, personally, cannot stand the sight of seeing blood. Yet, if we go to war and they feel that they need me, I wouldn't question it. It's like others have said--it's not like you are going to be expected on the front line or in the infantry. And that goes for you Hakeem Olajuwons and Kelvin Catos with your conditions--there are many things that people like you can do to help our nation. Don't automatically assume that your bad back rules you out for any type of service. For the record, I am not trying to be insensitive about anyone's physical condition. I just feel that we should all be thankful that we live in this country and not Afghanistan, Cambodia, or some 3rd world nation. If your country needs you, then you should be there for it. At least that's how I see it." Not only do I not mention anyone's names, I don't call people p*****s, cowards, etc. although I do call them Hakeem Olajuwons and Kelvin Catos. I said later that I went over the line and I apologized. What else do you want me to do--I admitted I was wrong. WHOA! LET'S HOLD UP RIGHT THERE. I never made any racist remarks here and definitely not towards you. If anything I made remarks that I felt some people's attitudes here didn't seem very patriotic. I'm sorry if you're subjected to racism, but don't even go there with me on that card. Sounds like to me that you have an axe to grind, and you are jumping to conclusions that are just not there. Once again, I only have taken this stance with you because of your calling me a loser. My comment that was NOTE TO SELF was meant the same way as you calling me a loser. If you thought that it was a racist remark then I'm sorry because it wasn't. I don't even know what race you are and I definitely didn't take your comment of me being a loser as racist just as an insult. However, I have apologized and I don't know what else to do or say to you. It's really sad that at a time like this you and me would be wrapped up in something so petty and trivial as this. Yes, I'm going to stand up for myself here, but man, this isn't really worth it when you look at the grand scheme of things. Let's just let it go and try not to fill each other with hatred toward one another. I am willing if you are.
Jeff you would not have that freedom of choice if millions of Americans before today had chosen your path. I don't know what your quotes hoped to accomplish but Tibetans did take up arms to try and defend their homeland, though obviously not very successfully. I was simply trying to show that even pacifists will take up arms to defend their homeland. I apologize to the community here if my comments in this thread insulted or seemed over the top. I didn't intend to insinuate that those with medical conditions, who are obviously unfit for military service, are cowards of any kind. I was speaking of able bodied Americans. Particularly boisterous able bodied Americans who often criticize American policy and are active in politics. I see it as quite hypocritical for those people to be so passionately involved in critiquing our government and then not heed the call to defend their country. I honestly think that it's quite unfortunate that a person could live here and enjoy our tremendous freedoms and then refuse to serve that same country to defend those freedoms. I doubt that the call for a draft will come but it's interesting to read people's points of view on the matter. Outlaw, I will only volunteer if we can share bunks.
Manny, There really seems to be a communication problem here, for whatever reason. I will try to be as clear as possible: 1. Yes, my "loser" comment was directed towards Jeff. It seems pretty clear to me, as I was sarcastically admonishing Jeff. He, by the way, is my friend which is the reason I did that. 2. No, you did not say Jeff, but you said, "we know about your bad back and everything." I was just playing off of that. Key word is "playing." 3. I in no way was saying that you were a racist, nor was a saying that you were like a racist. I was just using a past example to show that when someone says something insensitive and then later says, "I don't mean to be insensitive" then what was the point of saying it in the first place? Believe me, I have no ax to grind. 4. I understand that you apologized and I said I appreciated that -- it is over. I just did not understand why you seemed to be taking personal shots at me for which I saw no reason. I now see that you somehow thought I was calling you a loser. I, now, apologize for this misunderstanding...I thought it was obvious that I was playing at Jeff's expense. 5. There is no need to read any hatred in my posts. I do not intend them as such. It is laughable that I could even begin to feel hatred towards someone I know so little about. I, honestly, do not even know of things you have posted outside of this thread. I, again, was just trying to understand your seemingly un-provoked attacks on me. I now see the misunderstanding and it is no big deal (although it never really was in the true sense of things). 6. Me quoting your "Note to self" was just me trying to show that this was not serious...that I was not trying to attack you or anything, so I closed with an attack on myself. I guess that subtlety was lost...oh well.
Rimbaud, I appreciate you clearing this misunderstanding up between us. I guess it's a little obvious that I've been on the edge. I'm sorry and I'll provide you a link that goes more in-depth. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22024 Peace
I'd just like to bring up one issue, that regarding the "older" generations' opinion concerning our youth and their level of patriotism. By this I mean those of our generation (I'm 28...) are thought by our parents and grandparents to not have the same level of patriotic resolve that they had. I've been trying to tell them that when we are confronted with our "great war" that we will step up and make them proud. I am heartened to see that I was right. In 1999 the DoD wanted to see just how patriotic members of my generation really were, because they were concerned about why they weren't meeting recruiting targets. They conducted a study and found that my generation was probably even more patriotic than they had hoped - actually, the most patriotic generation they had ever seen, and that the failure to meet recruitment targets was due primarily to economic considerations. While there are a few cowards out there, the vast majority of 18-35 year-olds are stepping up in massive numbers. Whoever did this has severely miscalculated regarding our level of patriotism.
We all have freedom of choice in every situation regardless of our history. Every choice is a free one. The consequences aren't always up to us but the choices always are. Besides, you cannot know what would have happened to my life or yours if things would have been different. It is simply impossible to know the consequences of your actions until after you've made those decisions. That is why making mindful decisions is so important. Yes, they did and they were eventually told by their own leader to stop. Ghandi used passive resistance WITHOUT violence to return India to the control of Indians despite the oppressive and, at times, brutal domination by the British Empire. My quotes we designed to demonstrate that Buddhism does not support violence in any form no matter what Tibetens chose to do at the time China invaded. We still live in a society that allows us to express ourselves freely. Choosing to disagree with the way the government is run in peace and in war is part of that freedom. If you disagree with the premise of violence in all its forms, you don't simply suspend that belief even in a horrible situation like this one. The belief that we are better off with non-violence in all situations is just as strong and powerful as the belief that defeating the enemy through a violent conflict is a necessary reality. I respect the fact that others feel the need for armed conflict. Those that don't agree should feel free to express that as well.
You've missed the completely obvious point that you would have no freedom to choose if those before you chose not to fight. It's your luxury because others chose to fight and at times die for the freedoms that you now exercise and refuse to fight for.
