IROC it...I understand what you are trying to say. I just happen to disagree with you and your wife's sister's Father in Law. To believe what you have posted, one would have to consider Judaism a race. Some may. I do not. I consider it a religion. Any Jew who accepts Jesus as the messiah is no longer a Jew. Period. More than likely that is why Dr. Weiss' family "disowned" him. He is a Christian.
this is a terrible misconception about Christianity. none us believe in more than one God. Jesus literally quotes from OT in the NT saying, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one...." the polytheism label is thrust on because people don't understand the concept of the trinity. but there is no polytheism in the intent or heart of Christians, I promise you. yes, I do believe him to be the fulfillment of OT prophecy. i realize that's where I part ways with Jews. but let me say, I truly believe we're talking about the same God. the idea that there has been rivalry and angst between Christians and Jews is sickening at the very least...as Christianity was borne out of Judaism.
I seriously had no idea "Jews for Jesus" really existed. Honestly, I thought it was just a funny line from the movie Airplane!
Nope they really exist...and they once tried to get me to join them. That lasted about fifteen seconds.
you might appreciate this...it's actually from the NT...a letter from Paul to the Romans. Paul ultimately believed in Christ...but he certainly considered himself to be Jewish...but I think he kinda makes your point here: Romans 2: 28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. Romans 3: 1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God. 3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."[a] 9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written (in Psalms and Isaiah) : "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."[c] 13"Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit."[d] "The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e] 14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f] 15"Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16ruin and misery mark their ways, 17and the way of peace they do not know."[g] 18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]
MM...you nailed it. Judaism is a religion. Religions are faith-based, therefore they come from within. Bravo.
when i read something like that...right there smack dab in the middle of the Bible...i have a hard time seeing how people ever twisted it to suggest that Jews were bad/evil/whatever else negative....and to perpetrate violence against them in the name of Jesus. makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever. people will twist anything, i suppose.
I hope no one would be offended by me mentioning the Jewish New Testament in this thread. I highly recommend this translation.
Both Jesus followers and enemies were Jewish. The followers believed He was Messiah. His enemies believed He wasn't Messiah. Jesus claimed He was. So from the beginning the followers of Jesus were Jewish and those opposed to Jesus were Jewish. As far as their religion goes not nationality. The name Christian came from the city of Antioch and stuck. When the gentiles were received as followers of Jesus it created a storm because the followers were exlusively Jewish. The primary differences came from Jesus Himself in giving understanding of God's promise to the Jews, explaining the promised Kingdom of God and differentiating the Old Covenants with a New Covenant He was declaring. The difference in the meaning of Jesus fulfillment of Messiah, the difference in the Covenants, and the understanding of the Kingdom of God is what separates the Jewish faith and the Christian faith. The Christian must understand that the root of faith in Jesus is in the Old Covenants given to the Jewish faith. That Messiah is Jewish and that the Kingdom promised to the Jewish faith is the spiritual Kingdom both believing Jews and Gentiles receive by faith in Jesus. They are different faiths, but joined by Jesus Christ in a New Covenant between God and mankind; as fulfillment of Messiah and the Kingdom of God to the believing Jew and as revelation and reconciliation to God for the believing Gentile. No need to argue if a Christian or Jew can be both. A Jew who believes Jesus is the Christ is saved. A Gentile who believes Jesus is the Christ is saved. The common factor is faith in Jesus the Christ. For the Jew who rejects Jesus as Messiah, then you must look for another. But Jesus said the Jewish law and prophets all revealed He was Messiah. So the Jew who rejects Jesus should also study to see if these things He said are true? That is only reasonable.
Interesting turn this thread has taken. I know how we can prove if Jews for Jesus are really Jews. Israel automatically grants citizenship for Jews so if Jew for Jesus shows up at Tel Aviv airport and says, "I'm a Jew and Jesus is the Messiah!" can he still get citizenship?
Are "Jews for Jesus" Jews (from a religion standpoint)? It depends on perspective: The early Jewish people that believed Jesus was the Messiah did not believe they were converting to anything. The believed Jesus was the fullfillment of the promises of their faith --- not a contradiction or change. The early Jewish people that did not believe Jesus was the Messiah believed these early followers of Jesus were blasphemous. From a Christian stand point Jewish people who believe Jesus is the Messiah are Jews who accept Jesus as the fullfillment of prophecy. So it's a matter of perspective --- Jewish people who believe Jesus is the Messiah believe Jewish people that do not recognize this are missing the promised Messiah. The Jewish people that do not believe Jesus is the Messiah believe the ones that do are blasphemous.
This is a strange misconception to me. There are dozens of Bible verses that relate to this but I’ll just give a couple here. Mark 12 The Greatest Commandment 28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" 29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark 12&version=31 John 17 1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john 17;&version=31; Given that the New Testament says as plainly as this that there is one God it’s hard to understand where idea that Christians believe in more than one God came from. If you’re talking about Christianity as taught by the Christian Bible then there is no question that there is only one God.
The "Jewish New Testament" is a translation of the New Testament that does not provide a literal translation of the New Testament. It is translated with a bias intended to prove a point. Therefore, it is about as useful in the study of Christianity as a comic book. I would even venture to call it propaganda. And, for your information, Muslims have called the Torah things that are a whole lot worse than a "comic book".
It is not a misconception. It is a difference in beleif. I am no Rabbi, but I do talk with one on a weekly basis, and we have discussed this topic. If you follow Jewish theology (the Talmud), then worshoping Jesus/wearing a cross is idolotry. As far as your New Testament quotes go, you have to realize that Jews don't beleive in the New Testament, and in fact think it is abhorrant because it adds the word of men to the word of God. The way Jewish scholars would interpret the quote from Jesus that you cited is that he is merely playing lip service to the oneness of God, while on the other hand he is impersonating God, thus committing one of the worst sins in Judaism. I am not slighting Christianity. I am merely pointing out that Judaism and Christianity are NOT mutually compatible. Christian theology has to do a lot of work to disregard the teachings of the Torah. There are two parts to Torah (something I just learned), the written, which is what Christians refer to as the "Old Testament," and the oral, which is the teachings of Rabbis passed down from generation to generation beginning with Moses on Mt. Saini (sp?). The oral Torah is now written down in the form of the Mishna and the Talmud (I may be wrong about the details here, but that's irrelevant). While Christianity might be able to justify itself with regard to the written Torah, as many Christian scholars point to passages in the "Old Testament" to support their theology, but I don't think Christians really acknowledge the oral tradition (I may be way off here). The point is, citing "Old Testament" verses in English as support for Christianity is really disingenuous. Anyways, if you beleive in Jesus as the mesiah, then you do not practice Judaism. You practice Christianity. My problem with "Jews for Jesus" is that they mislead people into thinking that they can continue to practice Judaism while beleiving in Jesus. That is simply false. Jews and Christians do not worship the same God. Jews worship a single God, while Christians worship the trinity. You may not think it is polytheism due to your personal theological beleifs, but that doesn't change the fact that Jewish theology considers it idolotry.
Your suggestion was that Christians worship more than one God. I showed you two New Testament passages in that say quite specifically that Christians believe in one God. You say that you don’t believe in the Christian Bible, but you still can’t claim that the Christian Bible says things it doesn’t say and then try to use that to criticize Christianity. Do you understand what I’m saying? If I made up something about the Torah, let’s say that I made up that it says Jews should worship other Gods, and then I went around saying that Jews are polytheistic because the Torah says they should worship other Gods, what would that say about me? If I had to make up something about the Torah to try to criticise the Jewish faith then that doesn’t say much about the strength of my position, does it? If I was confident in my beliefs then why wouldn’t I address what the Torah actually does say? Whoever told you that Christians are polytheistic is telling you something that is in direct contradiction to what the Bible, the New Testament, actually says, and it says it many time. I’ve already given you two New Testament verses, and here are some more. Again, all of these are from the New Testament. ROMANS 3 - 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. 1 CORINTHIANS 8 - 4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. EPHESIANS 4 - Unity in the Body of Christ 1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 1 TIMOTHY 2 - 1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. http://www.biblegateway.com/ There are more, but this is enough to show you that the Christian Bible, and all these quotes are from the New Testament remember, teaches that there is only one God. This is why it is so important to read the material for yourself and not simply blindly accept what someone tells you. Finally, note that it is just as offensive to Christians to call us polytheistic as it would be for Jews, although most Christians would probably be so surprised to hear you say that that they wouldn’t take it seriously. Most Christians assume that it is common knowledge that monotheism is the cornerstone of Christianity.
Well, I'm not trying to criticize Christianity. I'm merely telling you what Rabbis (who know more than me about such things) think about Christian theology. You can tell people whatever you want about what the Torah says, but that doesn't make it right. Unfortunately, Christians mostly don't fully understand the Torah, which is MUCH MUCH more than the English translation of the "Old Testament." Yet you add a big section to the end of it as if it were some new edition to an encyclopedia complete with a new appendix at the end! You have to admit, that's pretty bold. Rabbis see major theological problems with the "New Testament." You obviously don't have to beleive them, but you can't just chalk up their beleif to a misunderstaning when they have a far greater understanding of the original Bible than most Christians, including you. Now, I'm going to comment on the verses you quoted, but remember that I'm not a Rabbi. I'm merely pointing out why it is possible to construe the worshoping of Jesus Christ as idolotry, in terms of how the Torah defines it. You can obviously beleive whatever you want. If you say you are a monotheist, that's good enough for me. But that doesn't change the fact that, in the eyes of Judaism, you are committing the sin of idolotry. In the eyes of Christianity, I am guilty of the sin of not beleiving in Jesus (if that is a sin). Who cares if we are committing sins of each others' religions? Just because I say I worship one God, doesn't make it true. Same goes for this verse. It doesn't even mention Christ. It basically says: trust us, we're monotheists. Trust us, we beleive in the Jewish God. Well, let's look a little deeper... This could be construed as polytheistic. It says there is one God, and then there's this other guy, Christ, who is also divine. If you worship Jesus, you are worshoping a man, a form. God doesn't have a form (for Jews). Therefore, according to the Rabbis, you are guilty of idol worshoping. It says there is "one body and one Spirit." That is two things. Hence polytheism. You may say that they are the same thing, but I say that a body cannot be divine, for that is the equivalent of idol worshoping. Once again, one God and one other guy, who also happens to be divine. Polytheism. I'm not blindly accepting anything. I'm sorry if I am offending you, but you shouldn't be so sensitive to what peoples of other religions think about your beleifs. I am simply stating a fact: that Judaism considers the worshoping of Jesus Christ as a divine entity to be the equivalent of idol-worshoping. Remember, this whole conversation started in the context of "Jews for Jesus." I merely pointed out that Jews who worshop Jesus are violating Jewish law. There really is no debate here.
Are water, steam and ice different? They have 3 different attributes but they are all H2O in nature. They all have the same molocules. There is only 1 God for Christains. That God has 3 attributes - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
