Ehh, Isn't this a bit of a generalisation? I do not think I made fun of Jesus. And I actually answered the question. I do not make fun of Jesus, or Mohammed, or any of those guys because I know that hurts people. Another point, the fact that the non-believers do not believe in Jesus makes us screwed anyway, if he does exist. Since we do not believe. (actually we are screwed after life anyway. since if God exists we do not go to heaven, and if he doesn't exist and we are right, then there is no afterlife . So we better enjoy our lifes) I think it is pathetic for people to pretend they believe in a god, just to be save that if he exists they can say: "hey i believed".
The all-powerful creator of the universe is portrayed as a bearded Caucasian male with the mother of all mullets. And they call me disrespectful
I don't fear Jesus. I think we're all capable of acting like Jesus, though some prefer to disregard that by elevating him to an unreachable status. Like most religions, Chan/Zen Buddhism isn't something that can be read on the surface.
Oh yea, well for you non-believers, if you don't become a scientologist and pay thousands of dollars so you can exorcise those thetans that control your body, you'll live in an eternal hell of control by evil souls of aliens that were destroyed by the evil lord Xenu. Pretty big risk you're taking by disregarding the brilliant teachings of L. Ron Hubbard, but that's just me.
Fear the prince of peace? The turn the other cheek guy? The "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" man? No way, however, that old testiment God is tough! (if only some JC's followers practiced some of his teaching the world would be better off)
Exactly, the real Jesus is of middle East descent, more like today's Muslim than a white Caucasian. Oh, he would have a good chance of being kicked off the plane by his believers too.
Jesus really only should be feared by non-believers. His words: Matthew 22:33 - "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of Hell." M 12:32 - "Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him neither in this World nor in the world to come." M 13:42 - "The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and those who do iniquity, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth."
jesus was perfect? okay, and he is the paradigm of what we should seek to become? so we fear our own destinies, the absolute, eternal grace? i fear no such thing and am open as i can be about such matters. however, i do not believe in the ultimate but rather in the constant flux of the way things seem to be. i believe that the majority of those who claim to be christians are merely hedging their bets versus truly understanding and believing in jesus with all their heart and soul. how are they not bigger hypocrites than those of us who never stop seeking the limits of what we can know about ourselves and the universe around us?
The issue of the role fear plays in Christianity is one that I've been wondering about for quite awhile and one that has been frequently coming up in religion threads. The issue to me is if the message of Christianity is love then why is it packaged with a fear and a reward / punishment system. You embrace Jesus' love or else you suffer damnation. If love is enticed through the promise of Heaven or coerced through the damnation of Hell is that really love? Unconditional love to me would strike me as not needing a reward or punishment. God would love all and want all to be with him no matter if in they believed or not. Logically though I guess why would anyone bother being a Christian and how could Christians proselytize without offering a reward / punishment system to motivate people to accept a belief system.
Jesus is like totally BFF with people who are BFF with hims! Like, the only think you have to fear with your BFF is their disappointment in you! CIAO!!!
Otherwise, why would people join the church, temple, etc? The function of religion is to keep growing followers like herd of sheep. The ones that can not do that are the dead religion like the Greek and Roman religions.
The “fear of God” is actually quite an interesting and tricky concept, or it can be anyway, it seems to me. In many contexts I would very much agree what you’ve said. Jesus is about love, not fear, and yet in another way there is a certain kind of respect and submission and awe, and love, that I think works for me as a kind of fear, but I don't think that is typically how "fear of God" is understood. For the purpose of this thread I’m not sure what the real question is so I don’t know how to answer it.
I think you’re onto one of the most important issues the broader Christian church faces today and for many centuries. To answer your questions first, the concept of reward and punishment is really the Old Testament/old covenant idea of the relationship with God, but even then that existed for a purpose and God knew that people would fail trying to live by the law. You need to always remember that what God wants is a personal relationship, and a person must choose openly and willingly to enter into a relationship with God. (This point can be debated around the idea of predestination but that’s a major topic that I think we should do in another thread if anyone wants to discuss it). Romans explains that the law was actually made so that people would fail in trying to keep it. From Romans 3: We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; ... 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin... 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[] through faith in his blood... http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom 3&version=31 So God, our Father, gave us free will and the choice to enter into a relationship with him, like a father child relationship in many ways, which is why the term Father is used. We are all presented with the choice of trying to live on own by trying to “be good” or by seeking worldly things like wealth and status, or we have the choice of turning to God for help and submitting to him like a child turns to its father. He gives us the choice. He wants to give us unconditional love but he gives us a choice of whether we want to enter into that relationship with him or not. Actually the better question is, is it possible for Christians proselytize by offering a reward / punishment system? I’m not so sure that it is. I guess it depends what exactly the message is. Christians are to pursue their relationship with God in their own life and to live out of the spirit of God that lives within them. People can see that in them and many are drawn to it and see that there is a different way to live. They also speak to what they believe but they are never to be judgmental. And the last thing a Christian wants is for someone to believe that mere compliance with OT law will have any impact on their salvation at all. That could well amount to a denial of Christ, in fact. The bible itself warns strongly against this in Matt 7: 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' But it also reminds us and tells us how to recognise the difference. Matt 7 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. (Note that this does not mean that a good tree will bear perfect fruit all the time. Christians remain imperfect people to the day we die). Gal 5 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. 1 Cor 13 1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Lots of interesting things here but I'm not sure it clarifies things for me here. I understand the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament in that the New Testament argues that faith is what redeems humanity and not laws but that to me is stating that redemption is still the goal but the path to getting to it is different. This again comes to the question of if God is all powerful then why even bother with giving a choice of faith to begin with? Individual human choices from the standpoint of an all powerful god strikes me as being irrelevant since if God is all loving and that love is unconditional whether an individual human chooses belief or not shouldn't matter. For instance if I have a son who rebels and says he hates me and he no longer considers me his father if I love him unconditionaly shouldn't I still love him whether he feels the same way? In that case then why would God need humans to make the choice to have faith in order to be redeemed? I think what you're saying is that people should recognize an innate goodness in Christianity and so should desire to be a Christian. I agree that there are many Christians who display an innate goodness but there are many who don't and at the same time many people don't choose to do things out of innate goodness or what may be considerd good in one culture might not in another. The impression I am getting is that Christians should proselytize by saying that you should be a Christian because that is the right thing to do. As a Christian that might be understandable since you've already made the choice of faith but I don't think that's something that would innately be understood by a non-Christian. Humans though are almost universally motivated by reward and punishment and to me it seems like it would be a difficult argument to sway someone to Christianity without bringing up Heaven and Hell and offering faith as the path to attain one while avoiding the other.
sishir - i've never once "evangelized" by talking about heaven or hell. i think, at this point, you have a view of Christianity you want to be right, despite the fact Christians here have told you they have a very different understanding of it. i don't mean to sound insulting..that's just what i perceive from your posts on this topic.
^ MadMax; Its a fair criticism and I apologise if I'm giving the impression of presenting a negative opinion of Christianity. As I've said before I respect Christianity and Christians but honestly I don't understand it. I don't want to sound offensive or disrespectful but am giving you an honest opinion and trying to ask honest questions. Faith is by nature irrational and perhaps and for better or worse we are attempting to debate such issues through a rational framework. In the end there may be no way of logically understanding the nature of what you say when you talk about the realtionship of one to God anymore than I can rationally convey to you my understanding of Karma.
