hp- I don't believe Redd has been traded? One could possibly argue Drew Gooden/Mike Miller because Gooden has a couple extra years, but Miller was a ROTY on a rookie contract. Actually come to think of it, the closest might be the cap dump Orlando did to make room for 2 max contracts, when they gave away Maggette (though he hadn't performed yet) and the #10 overall (Dooling). B-Ball Freak: If Miami was slightly under the cap (less than the amount of the MCE) they would still receive the MCE by renouncing their cap space. And, unlike others, they'd be able to use it without even nearing lux. tax zones, plus they have the advantage of offering the location of Miami. What bigs out there will be worth more than the MCE? Clearing 9 mill won't be enough for KG. That leads you to RFAs like Swift and Martin, who you'd have to overpay, or the insanity that is Rasheed Wallace . The point still is Butler is virtually untouchable, and him being added as sweetener in a cap moving deal is even more implausible. They could easily move him alone if they so wanted.
Dude! Do you ACTUALLY believe that Miami would make this trade knowing that it'll leave them with a team that scores 11 LESS points per game than before? Why in the world would they or ANYONE else be stupid enough make such a deal?
I fully agree that Caron Butler is untouchable btw. He is Riley's favourite player, and Riley is Caron's favourite coach. Riley believes that Caron is a cornerstone, almost a franchise player. Along with Lamar Odom, they have made their PG position t oANY Guard: Point, Shooting, or hybrid. Why? Because Riley was brilliant enough to have Caron handle the ball late last season, and he's made Caron play PG in every single game/pickup game/practice this summer, and he is fully capable of carrying a lot of that load now. He averages quite a decent number of assists per minute and per turnover too. The reason I think Jones is available is because Wade can play PG, and the Heat are UNBELIEVABLY high on him. Everyone in their organization believes that he's their PG of the future, with or without Odom playing Point-Forward. Knowing that, it's impossible to actually believe that Jones isn't available for a fire-sale price, i.e., cap space. The reason I offer Mo in a deal is because cato/Grant is too redundant, and because they need a post player. This line-up would be pretty damn decent: Grant/Signing MoT/Samaki Walker Odom/Rasual Butler Butler/Wade Wade/Moochie/FA signing That gives them a shot at homecourt IMO, with a MUCH younger team. Jones is 32 isn't he? Mo is 27 right? I'm just saying that Miami would love to remove either Grant or Jones from their payroll, but probably not both because they're looking to get younger AND get in the playoffs.
So, is the question just how badly the Heat want to dump Odom? As in, so bad they'd use Butler as bait? If so, what players would they have to get back? Same question with Baker. Even Ford links those two. Who else qualifies like that? Croshere? Booth? Seemingly any Knick? Henderson in Atlanta?
NIKEstrad, Meant Redd to say that trading a performing lotto for an equally young surprising 2nd round is about the same...just using him as an example. The Gooden/Miller trade did not involve a veteran. I consider it the prime example. And it included two ther Rookie Scales. My point was that performing lotto's don't seem to get traded for veterans...only equally performing rookie scales or cashed in for immenent draft picks. I'd call Gooden and Giricek much more than immenent draft picks. Wasn't Gooden Rookie of the Month in Nov. Anyhow there was no veterans in that trade. That's the trend I'm trying to point out. Don't get stuck on trades that don't involve veterans or involve drafts right to unsigned rookies. That's not the trend I'm trying to point out. The odd trend after the CBA changed when the new Rookie Scale took effect seems to show teams don't trade Rookie Scales (especially lottos) who are performing to or exceeding expectations for veterans. I think it is a facinating trend. Turkoglu and Desmond Mason seem to be the only thing close. Trading draft rights of unsigned rookies like Maggette for a vet happens all the time--if you are referring to the Supersonics/Orlando. The trade with Dooling (who was an unsigned rookie) was separate, and there was no veteran received in return...just a 1st Rounder from the clips.
Young, up-and-comers get traded all the time -- when their rookie contracts start to come due and they believe their worth much greater than their team believes their worth. 6ers might pay KT 50 mil (why?) but the Rox not pay JPo half that (again, why not?). 2, 3, 4 year rookie-vets get traded all the time, like Dre Miller, Mike Miller, Hedo, Rip, and so on.
I thought the same! There is no such word as contending for a play-off spot in the East! Teams either sign up to the list to go to the play-offs or they sign up for the list to get to the lottery. Their choices!
xiki....I didn't say well-performing lotto rookie scales don't get traded....I said the trend is they don't get traded for veterans....teams tend to trade underperforming rookie scales or teams hold the good ones tight or trade them for other rookie scales or draft picks. Even when you extend it beyond the lotto's it still seems to be a trend for any of the steals like KT. Brand/#2 Bibby/Williams Gooden, Giricek/Miller, Humphrey KT/Posey Dre Miller/Miles Dickerson/Francis (from our side of the trade) young Maggette/Clippers pick that said, you found one!!! Rip Hamilton for Stackhouse. How did NIKEstrad forget that... Another is Ron Artest...NIKEstrad forgot that, too. Larry Hughes is another in 1998. That's still only 2 good lotto players (Hughes/Rip) traded for a vet since 1997, that I can find. I know some people will focus on me trying to say this is some absolute law...I'm not. I just think it is an interesting trend to post about. Does it have something to do with the new rookie scale?
I wasn't arguing, just thinking 'out loud'. Amplifying some. If one reads this Forum then one would expect EG to be swapped for a vet. BTW - will Wagner be dealt before October? I suspect so.
Well, in 1996 the Bullets traded Rasheed Wallace to Portland for Rod Strickland. Close enough, right? What about Jonathan Bender for Antonio Davis (if Hughes can be called good, then I guess Bender can, too...or it least he had "good" potential"). Tim Thomas was traded to Milwaukee for Tyrone Hill. Does Jermaine O'Neil for Dale Davis count? He didn't have the numbers, but he had the potential and was on a cheap contract. Pistons traded Rodney White to Denver for Bateer and Don Reid. Boston traded Joe Johnson and a future 1st rounder to Phoenix for Rogers and Delk. Marbury for Brandon in 1999. Does Baker for Kemp in '97 count?
OK, Hughes wasn't good? So Bender wasn't either, unless you want to count Cato as well...hehe. I think Hughes counts...considering he was with AI and that more than anything kept his scoring low. I never did much like him, though, and I agree, that he wasn't as good as people wanted him to be. But I'd still say he was a performing lotto traded for a vet. O'Neal was traded after his 4th year with Portland, which wouldn't make him Rookie Scale anymore. Scratch him out. The other stuffy that you show is part of the trend that I'm trying to show...without doing an entire history lesson. The 1997 class and earlier seem to have more trades of rookies for vets than since. The trend seems new. You can name many more from the 1997 class and prior. McGrady and Derek Anderson for starters. Marbury was class 1996, and also came with the 1999 1st Round and another future 1st rounder.
forgot to add...Joe Johnson is a bust in my book. Rodney White's trade included a #1 from Detroit....which is about what he was performing at...
the only person id take from that team is grant.....but i dont want anotha bad contract.......Butler is intruiging but the Heat wont give him up......
Just interjecting: I thought they wanted to get rid of Jones so they could play Wade at the SG position? Their lineup would basically be Odom, Wade, Butler in the 1-2-3, no?
heh hp, I wasn't trying to list every multi-team transaction in the NBA. I was referring the Magic trading Maggette to the Clips as part of the cap-clearing dump, not the Horace Grant deal. But as you mentioned, there was a pick coming back from LA. Like Mason in the GP trade, I wouldn't consider Artest the meat of the deal- getting a rock solid center in Brad Miller was.
