Jamison is young and improving. I don't see a parallel with Jones and Grantthere. Also, Jiri did not tip the scales for Dallas to throw in NVE. Jamison and Fortson were the meat of that deal. Jones is aging and has some risk involved considering his injury situation. Miami is going to have to give up something to get something. Does the acquisition of Odom and the possibilty to clear 9 mil in cap space and maybe get another hot young prospect in a pivot position make losing Caron a possibilty? I don't know but neither does anyone else in here. That's all I am saying.
Just to add to what NikeSTRAD said, the Heat are hardly in a desperate cap situation that would dictate them having to aquire Glen Rice. They arent going to trade Jones or Butler straight up for Rice and they sure as hell aren't going to send Grant our way without us sending EG and Cato in return. Like Strad said, Miami, because they are under the cap and far from luxury tax country, have more flexibility than people on this BBS give them credit for. Last, I don't see why people keep insinuating that Jones or Butler would even be available just because they signed Odom. I forsee Riley starting all 3 and using Odom as a point forward. Wade will get plenty of playing time backing up all 3 (I think Rasual Butler could be had). After all, hasn't Riley had success coaching tall point guards??
Well, I guess we'll see shortly. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1602984 Lamar Odom will join the Heat. The Clippers have decided not to match the six-year, $65 million offer sheet to the versatile forward Monday. "After long and careful consideration, we have elected not to match the offer sheet presented to us by Lamar Odom. In the final analysis, the decision was based on issues of character and other risks involved," Clippers GM Elgin Baylor said in a statement. After more than two decades without signing a high-priced free agent or retaining a marquee player, Clippers owner Donald Sterling has committed $124 million this off-season by matching offers to restricted free agents Elton Brand (six years, $82 million from Miami) and Corey Maggette (six years, $42 million from Utah). Letting Odom go to Miami would represent significant savings for Sterling, but that would make Odom the fourth significant L.A. free agent this summer -- along with center Michael Olowokandi, point guard Andre Miller and sharpshooter Eric Piatkowski -- to leave the club without compensation. Matching the Odom offer, however, came with potential risks as well, besides taking Sterling's summer spending to an unprecedented $190 million. Because of Odom's recent injury history, and two substance-abuse suspensions in four NBA seasons, he represents a $65 million gamble for whichever team secures his rights next week. "I'm just trying to let the Clippers understand it's my time to move on," Odom told ESPN.com earlier this month, saying his main motivation is the chance to realize his long-held goal of playing for Heat coach Pat Riley. "It's in my best interests and it's in their best interests. "I'm looking forward to a fresh new start, playing for the Heat and coming back home to the East Coast. I think it's about time that I get my career off the ground and I think Miami is where I need to go. Hopefully the Clippers will understand where I'm coming from." Senior NBA writer Marc Stein contributed to this report.
NIKE - I agree with everything you have posted thus far including Caron Butler being a pipedream and Rasual Butler being an outside possibility (though not much of an upgrade). But.... as you already know (but temporarily forgot), the Heat were under the cap hence they have no MCE.
How about this trade proposal: Heat Trade: Rasual Butler Eddie Jones Rockets Trade: Glen Rice Moochie Norris We could then sign Kenny Anderson for the backup pg.
I really would have to believe that the Heat would rather trade Jones for a small but cap friendly deal right abotu now. I'm pretty sure they're looking at starting Wade at PG, Caron at SG, and Odom at SF. As of now, Brian Grant is their PF, so they're still looking for a C, or a PF if Grant is still willing to play C. Of course, they can always go with Samaki Walker, or everyone's favourite player, Vladimir Stepania. However, ridding themselves of Jones' contract would look VERY good right now, and some sort of deal like Rice and Moochie plus the Chicago obligation is super for them. If they sign Kenny Anderson for example, they're looking at this: Grant/Ken Johnson Samaki Walker/Allen Odom/Rice Butler/Wade Wade/Anderson/Moochie Their only big contracts would be Grant and Odom, and they'd be more than willing to offer Butler his extension soon, locking their 1, 2, and 3 positions up for a LONG time. In case you didn't read Tim Hardaway's interview, Wade looks like his understanding for the game will make him a natural PG, and the fact that Odom plays Point Forward, and Butler has been playing PG all summer REALLY helps him out.
Sane, Your logic continues to baffle me. Why would Miami trade Jones for Rice/Moo and a 2nd round pick?? Which would essentially boil down to Jones for Moo and a 2nd rounder since Rice will walk after next season. Jones still has value and is hardly considered comparable to a Mo Taylor contract v. production wise. Also, Rice's contract gives them more cap space summer. Only one problem. There aren't any big men FAs next year (besides McDyess maybe) that they won't be a MCE/MLE option. IMO, Miami laughs at that deal and waits for someone to offer them something of more long term value, including a PF/C. Thats even if Jones is available.
Why would we be waiting on Miami? We don't need Jones, and he's the one they really need to move. We could take Grant, but Miami would need something preferable back. They won't trade Grant + for Rice and Cato or Taylor. I don't see it. There's no Rox deal there. Look to SAR instead.
I wasn't clear there. I wasn't talking about this year; I was referring towards next year (which is why people are saying the Heat want to deal). They're slightly under the cap now, and will be next year as well. Next year, they will still have the MCE and the fact that they're in Miami to play with to lure a decent big man, if that's the whole line of reasoning. B-Ball Freak- Jamison is overpaid period, he has a max contract with more years than Grant left on it, and has severe limitations (no position, no shot, no defense). The Warriors would've given Fortson away, and have been trying for a few years now- he was an overpaid, oft-injured albatross sitting on the bench for them. Further in regards to Caron- Is it really worthwhile for them to trade the only have decent 4/5 they have right now in Grant? Does it make any sense to take their strength, and trade both Jones and Caron? Besides, what hot young prospect do we have in a pivot position? The Heat could do better than Eddie Griffin. Point is, even if you can conjure up a scenario where Butler is available, we definitely don't have the pieces.
Nike, Miami is rebuilding. They absolutely would let Grant go, IMO. If they are slightly under the cap next year, how will they have an MCE? Saying Jamison has severe limitations is a bit of an overstatement. He is a borderline allstar tweener who is now paired up with the perfect complimentary frontcourt mate (I mean, he's got a Mcfarlane figure and everything ). Dallas was desperate for a banger and got one in Fortson. His bench time had as much to do with issues with management as it did with injuries. "Overpaid" and "Dallas" are basically synonymous. Why this is coming into a Miami discussion, I have no idea. Codell, Your logic baffles me when you clearly underestimate the value of 9mil in cap space whether you are under already or not. Miami is rebuilding and they have the pieces to bring in bigger pieces now. Rice walking is exactly why they do this. Cap space ain't just about FA's, it's also about facilitating trades.
lol I wouldn't call it underestimating. I am just waiting for all the trade experts to explain to me how excess cap space is more valuable to Miami when a) There are no notable big man FAs next year (besides McDyess) to spend that excess cap money on and b) Jones has enough trade value to land a decent PF/C via trade. Trading Jones for all of our crap doesn't help Miami's pursuit of a legit big man to compliment Grant and swingman central and specifically, aquiring Rice doesn't add to their rotation nor does the excess cap room it brings put them any closer to adding said big men. IMO, if Riley wants to trade Jones, hes not going to do it for just cap space unless he gets a legit starting big man. Why would they trade Jones for an expiring contract when they might be able to get both an expiring contract and big man in return??? BTW, Miami is not exactly rebuilding. They are trying to contend.
Yeah, they are clearly a player away. Thanks for helping me see the light on that one. Next year what would 9 mil in cap space and a rookie-contract badass back court player get you in a trade? Don't "lol" me and then say something like Miami is trying to contend. Please.
B-ball, You are basing this on the logic that Butler is available. 23 year old, 15 pt, 5 reb SFs on rookie contracts don't get just thrown into trade proposals like eye candy. I tend to side with others who believe that Caron is not available. Also, please address how Miami is better off waiting to trade away excess cap space next summer, when they can trade Jones for a piece of the puzzle right now (big man). Are you saying that excess cap space is worth more than Jones and will therefore, bring more in a trade?? And "please". A core of Jones/Butler/Grant/Odom with a bench of solid rotation players is a contender in the East (not contenders with NJ and Det, but certainly a contender for a playoff spot). Make sure and inform Riley that he is not contending for playoff spot next year. I am sure he will tell you different.
I'm not married to the Butler scenario, and by contend I assumed you meant Championship. I'm just saying that there could be players to be had and not to discount the value of an expiring contract. We have some expendable bigs that could prosper in the East and a whopper of an expiring contract. That's all.
and I most certainly think a rookie contract stud and cap space would bring more than Jones's contract would. Just MHO
B-ball, First, I think we should at least agree that Butler is probably close to untouchable. THere is no doubt in my mind that he and Odom can play together and the swing positions and Wade can back them up or start at the 1 if Jones is traded. Butler was a ROY contender and is multi skilled on a rookie contract. I just don't see someone like that being easily available, if at all. Second, my original post was about Sane's proposal sending Rice/Moo/2nd rounder to Miami for Jones. In that, it boils down to the question I ask about whether or not Jones trade value is or is not higher than a trade involving just cap space/relief. By no means am I saying that an expiring contract is not worth anything. I am just saying that I believe a legit starting player in the NBA, especially one of Jones' caliber is worth more than just plain cap space/relief (like Rice's expiring contract). Therefore, I believe that if Jones is on the block, that Miami is more likely to trade him for a big man than they are to trade him for an expiring contract and then hope that next summer, a team offers them a legit big man in exchange for cap relief (how many teams will be in the luxury cap danger zone that a) Have a big man they are willing to part with and b)Are willing to give that player up for just cap relief and some filler???). I can agree that if we offered Cato and/or Taylor in addition to Rice, that Miami might be willing to offer Jones in return (again, assuming Jones is even available). Highly debatable though, given the Cato/Taylor production v. contract situations as they stood at the end of last season.
Name a lotto pick who (without question) more than fulfilled is expectations and got moved for a vetaran with no similar quality rookie scale player (or immenent high draft pick) in return. by my count you have to players from the 1997 draft. Turkoglu is the closest, and he was not a lotto pick, nor ever a starter.
Brand (minus the whole veteran thing) Codell, It sounds like we are on the same page moreso than I originally thought. The only thing I disagree with is Jones's value.
if I didn't make it clear, the point is that well-performing rookie scales do not get traded for anything other than well-performing rookie scales, very high (immenent) draft picks or young 2nd Rounders like Redd who are playing like a performing rookie scale.
