Maybe that's why the genre died? j/k I was one of the unfortunate ones that actually bought the game. "My my my MY MONEY!!!"
You're missing out. Go and check out X, that was a story that sucked me in and a great game all around. Its right up there with VII. Man you need to play FFVII. That game was amazing. Just don't go reading any spoilers.
RPGs are my favorite genre but I don't think they are really 'dying'. I've been wanting to get Star Ocean for a while now but I don't have the cash right now. Besides I'm content using my R4 downloading Suikoden, FF and Fire Emblem...at least for now.
Probably should give Oblivion or Fallout 3 a shot. Lots of gameplay, probably 100+ hours if you want. Don't know about the story for Fallout 3, but Oblivion was OK, although nothing fantastic. Like a lot of Western RPGs though, you can "create" your own storyline so to speak. If you meant JRPGs, it might be a little tougher. Valkyria Chronicles is really good, definitely worth the $60. Another OK storyline (at least through what I've played), probably better than most games out there. Eternal Sonata got decent reviews, but I think it is a kind of love it/hate it game. Same for Disgaea 3, Folklore, and maybe another game or two I'm forgetting. If you want a great JRPG, you'd probably be better off playing a PS2 (or even PS1) JRPG you missed (e.g., Persona).
Agreed. If I make it through this semester, I'm buying a PS3. With that purchase, I'll buy Oblivion. I played it at a friends for a bit....loved it.
I made it pretty far in the game, than got busy with life again, and by the time I got back around to it, I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing anymore. Its happened with all of them. Next time my wife goes to visit her Dad, or something and I have an excuse not to go, I am going to finish X.
I made it through the video, bad as it was. I can't make it through 30 seconds of this (others might know about Boxxy but I was just introduced to the horror yesterday). Ok so maybe I made it to the 1:04 mark before closing the video in disgust. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Yavx9yxTrsw&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Yavx9yxTrsw&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> So my opinion on RPG's (I dunno what JRPG's are): 1. The old RPG's that endeared themselves in the hearts of Americans (including myself) translated better than the newer video games, because the graphics were so lo-res that it was almost like a book. We were free to envision a world in our minds that was free from the shackles of Japanese culture, Japanese faces, or anything that had anything to do with the East whatsoever (except the whole anti-church propaganda that permeated half of those games). I mean, I love Xenogears as much as the next person, but that was the first game really that led game producers to believe that it was OK to put anime cut scenes in a game, and to have all characters naturally lug around a giant robot to get into for big boss fights. This stuff is natural to Japanese cartoons, but it was a shock for me even when I played Xenogears for the first time. 2. A lot of the fans of the old SNES games like me grew up. PS1 was my last real video game system. Between FFIV and Wild Arms 2, I essentially played every major RPG that was ever released by Square and many of the good ones released by other companies like BoF (Capcom). But with the passing of one generation, the Japanese companies were dealt the burden of selling the old product to a new and entirely different market of fans in the US, for which there really wasn't too much of an incentive to market to in the first place. Which leads me to... 3. With the economy the way it is and has been going, Japanese game companies have for a number of years now been caring less and less about their American markets. From what limited exposure I have to games now, they don't even try to tone down some of the excessively-Japanese elements of their games--characters with eyes the size of my fist, space odysseys with exponentially exponential plotlines, robots everywhere, oh and that whole part about wasting 100+hrs in the game doing mindless tasks, something that is actually very popular for gamers in Asia apparently. If you don't believe me, try out the best-selling (apparently) RPG in Japan's history, Dragon Warrior 7. It is a blight upon the annals of video gaming, and I wouldn't wish my worst enemy to be stuck trying to beat that game. You would probably be better off watching Big Ten basketball for 100+hrs in a row than playing that game (BURN! double burn!). A better question to ask regarding "Japanese RPG's" is, did the Japanese video game companies ever care about their American customers? There doesn't seem to be much of a niche consumer base here anymore for it. My roommate is the biggest anime-o-phile I know, and even he had no patience to play any game I gave him except Xenogears. Conversely, I can't watch any of his sh-tuff. That group that watches anime will probably keep strong for a while yet, but I don't foresee any crossover into gaming from them anytime soon.
Im playing the new Star Ocean right now but the characters and locations suck. The gameplay is fun tho
Honestly, I think it's as simple as the games not being as good as they used to be. IMO, FFX was a great, great game. Just about worthy of being mentioned with the classics. But in my book, that's the last great JRPG there was (though a few have told me I need to play Tales of Vesperia before I can be sure about that). When there's another great one, I'm sure people will buy it. As you say, I don't think Valkyria Chronicles is pure JRPG... it's something else. I'm not sure why it didn't sell big... perhaps just too little press and the fact that people weren't sure how to categorize it. Great game, just not really what we're talking about, IMO.
I'm kind of the same with FFXII. Its a cool game, but I've not finished it. I bought it over a year ago. There have been about three different time periods I played it for a while. I plan on finishing it sometime soon. I have the same problem though, where I don't know what to do at first. The story on that one is pretty good, but didn't drag me in like the others. I think even IX hooked me more than that one. I tend to get far and then stop playing with a lot of games. I still have to go back and finish MGS4 and Uncharted. All I have left in Heavenly Sword is the boss battle. Maybe I'm just scared of goodbyes. There have been those games though, that I couldn't put down like GOW and Psychonauts.
It's really hard to say one way or the other since the jrpgs released have been utter crap. As I said in a post in the sales thread, the only two jrpgs this gen that look to be really great to me is Valkyrie Chronicles and Tales of Vesperia. Lost Odyssey looks to me to maybe be mediocre but fun. Other than that, it is a barren wasteland for that genre on the hd systems. If you want jrpgs, buy a handheld. The wrpgs look pretty fun. Especially Fallout and Mass Effect. And I'll probably give Oblivion a go too.
Good post. Ironically enough, I've read a lot about how, in recent years, a number of Japanese companies have tried really hard to cater more to Western audiences (key word "tried"). The reasoning being the shrinking Japanese market as well as higher production costs (NA and Europe are bigger markets and growing). Square-Enix in particular seems focused on figuring out how they can stay relevant in the West. Of course, the problem is that they don't know how to do this. The Last Remnant seemed to be SE's approach to a JRPG designed for Western gamers, but that was a huge failure. I think some of these ideas actually end up hurting them more since most of us became attached to games that didn't try to cater to Western gamers, but just focused on being great games. You do have a great point regarding how the limited technology of the NES/SNES/PS1/etc. helped to hide some of the cultural differences. Given the same concept art but newer technology, some classic JRPGs might seem very different (can even get a feel about this with the FF remakes). A more "realistic" approach by Japanese developers could certainly be more beneficial. I think that does play a large part. That said, it is a little strange that some of the games I mentioned in the OP (SO, BoF, Suikoden, Parasite Eve, etc.) never really had great reviews (around 70-80 at, maybe 85 tops), at least according to Metacritic/Gamerankings. I'm thinking there is probably just a lack of reviews, score standards, or something though since I personally think a lot of those games are great, much better than what their average scores are. For example, SO4 doesn't seem that much worse than past entries (maybe even better than some...or even the best?), but it sold much less than any previous entry.
Other than the first 2 Suikodens and the the very last BoF game(which was a welcome radical departure for the series and doesn't get the accolades it deserves), I'd have to disagree with those games being underrated. They are right about where they deserve to be: mediocre. And I have no idea why people bought those last two star oceans in the first place. I thought they were horrid games.
Well...perhaps "a lot" is a bit of an exaggeration. Other than what you said (which was mostly what I was thinking about), I'd probably say Parasite Eve, Star Ocean 2, and possibly BoF 3 (or was it BoF 4? I forgot) are at least a little bit better than what their reviews seem to indicate IMO (maybe by 5-10 points). Of course, what I think doesn't really matter in this case. Given your opinion on those games (or even mine), there would be a lot of mediocre games that still sold 200K+, more than what mediocre games are selling today, seemingly indicating that game quality isn't the only (major?) factor in this decline.
Another thing ... Is there even the marketshare on the next-gen consoles that there was on the SNES or PS1/2? I wouldn't know. I am surprised that more jrpgs haven't hit the Wii.
Don't really know for sure, but I'm sure the PS1/PS2 had sold a decent amount more by the time some of those games released. IIRC, 360 is around ~14M and PS3 is around ~7M. Would be nice to say ~21M, but you know that would be overestimating it. Maybe around 15M-18M. Don't know what PS1 and PS2 were at, but I'd guess maybe 25M-35M. This likely is a factor, but I don't think it is very much of one. Beyond a certain point, marketshare doesn't really affect game sales too much. MGS, RE, GTA, DMC, SF, etc., are all still selling as strong as ever on the same userbase. Suppose JRPG fans may just not own a 360/PS3, but that would seem a bit strange to me. Certainly would be a better analysis if Square-Enix would have released FF13 by now. Of course, at this point, I'd said there are probably 5-6 different things that have a small influence on this. Combine them all, and maybe that explains the dropoff.
I don't really know that, aside from Final Fantasy, JRPGs have really been 'big sellers' in a long, long time. I think the games in general have a set audience and don't really go beyond that. I also don't think quality has a lot to do with it, more that the formula doesn't change a lot. I don't think, as mentioned, that a lot of JRPGs have always been considered highly rated games. More often than not, there are just some established 'classics'. Also, RC, have you tried the XBOX JRPGs? Tales of Vesperia is pretty decent, and I've heard good things about Lost Odyssey. I know you usually don't put much stock in reviews, so I'm kinda surprised you would use them to gauge the quality. Especially since reviews for JRPGs tend to vary pretty widely.
I had to stop both of those videos in less than 10 seconds. The SO4 video made it through most of the first line of dialogue. I have to agree that poor localization is some of the problem. Horrible dialogue translations and even worse voice actors lead to bad word of mouth and bad sales. I personally like a lot of JRPGs but games like Fallout and Oblivion appeal to me because they use language and phrases I would use (and contractions. why do some Japanese companies not use contractions?). JRPGs have a reputation for requiring huge amounts of time to grind out levels so that you won't get stomped halfway through the game when the difficulty curve suddenly shoots through the roof for no discernable reason. You don't believe me? Try going through FFX or XII with as minimum a level as you can get. Right before you get to the last boss fight, go to one the Hidden Temple (the one that's basically nothing but boss fights, whatever it's name is) in X or try to get the bonus summons in XII. Let me know how that goes for you. I've still got my PS2 and the memory cards with all my saved games, and I've got over 100 hours in X and STILL haven't done everything there is to do. There's no sense of completion. Sure that's carried over somewhat to American games (bonus packages, CDs, what not in GTA, etc.) but Japanese companies have perfected it. Personally, the biggest problem I have with JRPGs is the payoff. I'm pretty sure it's something about the cultural mindset of many Asian countries, but it seems like the majority of JRPGs end up with the hero, or someone else important to the story, making a "noble sacrifice" to contain the evil, save the world, etc. etc. Americans have been trained by Hollywood to expect the hero to save the day, get the girl, and ride off in to the sunset with the treasure. Having someone you've invested so much time in end up DYING? Dude, where's the happy ending in that? Some games, like Spoiler The Force Unleashed have to do it, because of outside influences. But games like Spoiler Persona 3, where your character dies and Spoiler FFX, where Tidus is actually dead and dissolves once Sin is destroyed have what can charitably be called "melancholy" endings. As an added example, I'm playing Eternal Sonata right now, and let me tell you I'm not liking where this story is taking me. The opening movie shows one of your party characters committing a "noble sacrifice" for unknown reasons, and another in your party is a historical character who may or may not be on his death bed. Anyone want to bet that this doesn't end happily? Anyway, that's a couple of issues I have with them. I still play a lot of JRPGs, but I'm starting to become more willing to pop in Fallout 3 than a Final Fantasy, given the choice.
I guess it depends on your definition of "big sellers," but I don't know if I'd agree with that (see some of the rough numbers I mentioned earlier). If nothing else, it definitely seems like some JRPGs are seeing a ~50% dropoff from previous releases, which is pretty significant IMO. Of course, if you mean that this started before the 360 even launched, then I would agree. I've focused on the 360/PS3 JRPGs, but the decline probably started before that. Still no 360, so I haven't had a chance yet. In fact, I haven't even been able to check out all the PS3 JRPGs (most of the JRPGs I've been playing are PS1/PS2 JRPGs). A friend of mine has ToV though, and I've watched him play it a few times. Looks like a good game with great visuals, although I've never been big into the Tales games (partly due to my avoidance of the franchise for absolutely no good reason). I used Metacritic/Gamerankings simply to help in my "analysis" (if you want to call it that). It was the easiest/quickest way to get a rough idea of the quality of some of the games and compare them (SO3 vs SO4). Even though I used them, I actually made a note about how I didn't necessarily agree with at least some of the scores. I don't really know of a better way to gauge the quality of 20+ JRPGs, released over the span of 10-15 years though. In the event that I'd actually try a game myself, or suggest it to others, then I'd stick more to my own impressions or something along those lines.
