It's not about labels...it's about a relationship with Christ. I've had the pleasure of worshipping in tons of different kinds of churches...from the small-town Baptist church in Waco..to the big city Catholic church...and everything in between. Though there are things about each and every denomination that concern me, we have far more in common than we disagree about. We should focus on those similarities, disagree with kind honesty and get to the business of spreading the message of Christ....TOGETHER! Too much time is spent divided over who can have communion with who and when someone can be baptized. Though I have my own opinons about those types of issues, I'm much more concerned with people knowing God and the service of Christians to the rest of the world.
Amen! But for the record, and getting back to earlier comments, the first Christians were not Catholics in the common/modern use of the term.
I would think that a better way to put it would be that the Catholics were the first organized Christian Church.
i think the main difference between Catholics and (other) Christians is the role of Mary. Catholics revere her and consider her a holy figure. I think most of the other denominations think of her as just the human vessel through which Christ was born. The 2nd biggest difference is the Pope, whom Catholics believe to be infallable and speaks for God himself.
First, I think it's funny that someone would go the a Rockets' BBS to get a definitive response on this question. There are so many better resources available for a sincere inquiry. To clarify your question, here is what the 1994 official Catholic catechism states about salvation: "The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: 'For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.'" Pg. 215, #816 "...all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation..." Pg. 224, #846 While protestants, such as myself, find the following in the Bible: Romans 10:9-10 'That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.' Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast. So a better question for you to ask is, "What does it mean to be a real Christian?"
As I recall, the Roman Catholic church was just one of five branches of the Orthodox Church and it was not the first. The claim that the Roman Catholic Church uses to show that it was in fact first is through Peter. The first organized Christian Church is described throughout Acts and Paul's letters: there are teachers, deacons and elders and church discipline, hierarchy, etc. They use the term "Catholic" in the sense of the unified body of believers.
Well....I'll have to defer to you on that. I am a Catholic, but certainly not a good or knowledgable one.
Maybe not the two biggest differences, but Catholics should believe that these are true. Holy MARY "Taken up to heaven she (Mary) did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..." Pg. 252, #969 "Being obedient she (Mary) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Pg. 125, #494 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things." Pg. 252, #966 Infallable POPE "In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a supernatural sense of faith the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living magisterium, unfailingly adheres to this faith." Pg. 235, #889 "The Roman Pontiff... enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals... This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself." Pg. 235, #891
Thanks mr_gootan - I knew basically what they believed but had never seen it in writing. Very nice and important points, Mulder and ArtV. Where you go to church is much less important than what you believe and if you live your life as a follower of Christ.
As a side note: The Pope has declared infallibility only once in all of history, and it had to do with Mary.
As far as Confession is concerned, this is a particularly interesting subject that goes back to the origins of the Church, where one could argue that the Church was just "the Church" and not "Catholic", depending on how you look at it. Confession is something that goes back to pre 100 A.D. The thought was that once one was baptised, he was completely free from sin and would never sin again. Obviously that was not the case, and there was a lot of discussion as to how one was to cleanse himself. Now, this is where my dates become fairly hazy, but my history should be accurate. After one incarnation, in which people would travel to the head of the church, the practice of public confession was popularized. I believe this happened around 120 or 180 AD, but again, my dates are pretty fuzzy. One would stand at the front of the Church and confess his sins to the congregation. Private confession with a priest did not originate until some time later (and I'm pretty certain I'm wrong on this, but I thought it was somewhere around 700 AD in Ireland). The common misconception is that the priest is absolving you of your sins, which is not the case. The priest is only a mediator, and God is absolving you of your sins. As far as penance is concerned, this is another point of misconception. While penance is pretty much now "say 10 Hail Mary's and 3 Our Fathers", that's not the way it is supposed to be. That's really kindof a cop-out towards an easy penance to give and an easy one to do. Penance does not absolve sins. If I were given that 10 and 3 penance and I didn't do it, my sins are still cleansed. The purpose of penance is guidance as much as anything -- guidance for a lasting move away from sin. Penance is supposed to be something one is to go and DO, like go work in a food kitchen for a day or something like that. The Confession does have a psychological and emotional element. Those are interesting side-effects of Confession, but it is certainly no place for psychotherapy, as John Paul II says in his letter "Purpose and Benefits of Sacramental Penance of 3/20/98: <blockquote><i>One would not be justified, however, in wanting to transform the sacrament of Penance into psychoanalysis or psychotherapy. The confessional is not and cannot be an alternative to the psychoanalyst's or psychotherapist's office. Nor can one expect the sacrament of Penance to heal truly pathological conditions. The confessor is not a healer or a physician in the technical sense of the term; in fact, if the condition of the penitent seems to require medical care, the confessor should not deal with the matter himself, but should send the penitent to competent and honest professionals.</i></blockquote> As far as indulgences are concerned, they were never official church teaching. They were practiced by quite a lot of priests, and they were wrong. My Grandmother has an interesting story about this from my family's history -- apparently one of my ancestors from a LONG LONG time ago (1100s) was a wealthy Lord in Italy with a castle and everything. He died and his wife gave the estate to the local Bishop in hopes that her husband would be admitted to heaven. I don't know if the story is true or not, but it's been passed down through generations, and I suspect that there's at least some truth to it . . . what I find most interesting is how bitter she seems about it. The Catholic Church has had a pretty checkered history in practice. When talking about teaching and doctrines, there is a lot of consistency throughout time, and I can sit here and argue Biblical basis for everything, but I don't want to be part of a "my Church is better than your Church" pissing contest. Oh, I forgot one point to mention -- praying to Saints. When one prays <i>to</i> a Saint, he isn't praying to that Saint for salvation, but rather for that Saint to pray to God. It's much akin to when someone comes here and says "Please pray for _____". We know that God will hear us pray, but there's something to asking others to pray with us and/or for us. When we pray to St. Francis or St. John or whomever, we are asking him to help pray for us and reassure us that God is attentive to our situation.
The Bible teaches that all of those who follow Christ are saints. The faithful were often described in groups as saints in the letters of Paul to the churches. If you feel like "talking" to a person who lived a life that you can look to as an example, but who has now passed, be it your Grandfather or St. Patrick and asking that they pray with you to God the father I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, it often gives me great comfort when I pray with/for others. It is written that when one person prays 1000 angels take flight, when two pray 10,000 take flight. It is exponential. Just envision that. Very cool.
Vengeance, Thank you for the detailed explanation. Regarding confession, why is a priest necessary for mediation? We're told pretty specifically in the book of 1 Timothy who our mediator is. 1 Tim 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
In the Catholic religion, a "Saint" is defined as one who is in heaven with God. Now, just because someone isn't defined as a Saint doesn't mean that he isn't a Saint, he's just not recognized as such by the Church's governing body. They try to be very particular in who is and isn't called a Saint, only defining those whom the Church deems to be absolutely, unquestionably in heaven as Saints. Certainly anyone who is in heaven is such. For instance, I am certain that an old friend of mine, Br. Marion Belka is in heaven. He is a Saint. The Church hasn't canonized him as such, and likely never explicitly will, but I have no doubt. I ask him to pray for me often. Again, I don't want to start getting into a scripture battle because frankly, one can make scripture say anything he wants. The KKK uses a verse in the bible to justify its views, as do countless other organizations, both good and bad. For every time someone throws out a verse to say one thing, another can throw out a verse to counter it and we can do this ad nauseum. In the end nothing is to be gained by throwing back and forth tiny phrases and sentences taken out of context. I think "mediator" may not have been the best word that I could have used in describing the priest's role -- perhaps "ambassador" is a better term. The Priest acts as an instrument of Jesus, an ambassador of God in all things. The value of the priest is a fairly complex thing in both a psychological and spiritual sense, as well as his value in the sacrament. In terms of psychological and spiritual value, there is something that is so important and valuable about telling someone else your sins. It's certainly theraputic, and when one is truly sorry about his sins, there is a true sense of renewal after confessing them to another person, especially an ambassador of God. That can not be discounted. The priest has another importance in helping the sinner give a good confession. There's more to confessing your sins than just listing them. One should be truly sorry about the sins and make the resolve to not sin again. The priest is a guide through this and towards morality. God works through him to help us find the moral path in our lives and to do good, rather than evil. There is a hidden importance in confession of placing attention to our sins. The less attention we pay to sinfulness, the more likely we are to fall into sin again. Personally, I believe the sacrament of confession has fallen into being a sacrament of convenience. I've already mentioned the way penance has become (say some prayers), but the actual time with the priest in confession has become kind of drive-thru as well. I haven't been to confession in some time (I really should have gone over Lent), but typically it's a fairly quick thing without a lot of discussion between you and the priest. I think it's a result of a number of things -- lack of priests predominantly. With fewer and fewer priests, it's more difficult for them to actually have time to do slow confessions. Typically they'll have more confessors than time available, so it gets a bit rushed.
King James interpreted the bible. Let's go back in history and ask him what it means to be a christian.
