I am pretty sure self-righteousness is not a virtue in any religion, so it's safe to say no practitioner would rank his/her religion below any other religion in terms of anti-self-righteousness. However, my comment earlier was on the conducts of practitioners, if you agree we all know not every conduct necessarily conforms to the tenet of its respective religion.
LOL! Why, because she speaks Arabic? That doesn't make her "from that culture" if she herself says that she's a secular humanist and is not a Muslim, all the while criticizing Islam.
Islam is not above criticism, in fact right now it is being justifiably criticized for creating the majority of the worlds terrorists. Islam needs to right itself and root out the wackos or at least marginalize them instead of embracing them or, even worse, doing nothing about it. DD
That's not my point, DaDa, try to stay with me here instead of going on tangents. I already said that she makes a vlid point about extremism in Islam and how we have to deal with it. I gave her that much. My point is that her point is lost by her completely one-sided and factually-incorrect argument, she's not even making a semi-attempt at addressing the real issues or providing some sort of 'evidence' for her argument, it's entirely her opinion as a non-Muslim, which is fine but that doesn't make it right.
Well no doubt, but when you break down that she is talking about ME leadership and their barbaric treatment of women she is more than relevant. DD
Clearly she is someone who grow-up and was raised as a Muslim and has chosen to become secular. Clearly she is part of Islamic culture. What has Islamic civilization contributed to the world of later Tiger? Really - think about it...her words may sting, but for a moment...actually listen to what she is saying....forget about the facts that you are using to dismiss what she is saying...and think about the statements. Why do so many of us agree with her? We don't hate Islam...we're not anti-Islam. Think for a minute...view things froma different perspective....
Perhaps, but I think most people will find excuses to dismiss her...there needs to be an army of people like her... You know what's sad...I bet someone is going to make a death threat against her....
She seems like a NOW kind of woman. I have always been curious why NOW doesn't actively tackle the male superiority / female subserviance aspect of Middle Eastern cultures. A secondary issue is why the ACLU doesn't challenge Muslim precepts like it does Christian precepts.
Well how did it start? Did Mohammed not get visions from God and go forth trying to conquer and convert? I wish I had the books, because I don't remember Islam attacking others as self-defense because of their persecution. The jiza's however do sound familiar. Wasn't this concept started by Alexander the Great when he conqered the Persians? One thing I think the lady makes a valid point on that wasn't addressed is why do the (extremist) Muslims feel that violence is the best way to protest? Would Sadam still be in power had Bin Laden not orchestrated 9/11? In our culture, we have Christians who belong to the KKK. But as a society, we refuse to let these men go out and commit acts on a violent scale as the extremist in Islam have done. Why can't they control theirs? For the record I was raised Catholic, but as it stands now I don't consider myself any religion, so sorry Azadre, I don't fear your religion. Personally, I find it silly to believe one's religion is the right one above all others, especially when looking at all the great civilizations and religions that have fallen through time.
Is that serious question? The ACLU is an American organization concerned about American civil rights.
Are there not Muslims in America and Muslim Americans, including women, who practice their faith in schools and other public places? I'm not asking for an attack on Muslims -- I'm merely asking why there is not an even-handed ACLU approach to all religions. Do Muslims not agree that "In God We Trust?" And, more importantly for the sake of this thread, what about the women's rights issues?
AHA !! Another enlightened soul ! If all the Muslim women just witheld the poontang, they would have equal rights pretty darned fast. DD
NOW is not the ACLU, tiger. You know that. And NOW doesn't represent all feminists or women activists. I think thumbs has a valid question. The treatment of women is parts of the Muslim world, and in parts of relatively secular Muslim countries, like Turkey, could do with vast improvement, and may need to be looked at in the United States by women's rights organizations. Yes, I know some will answer that it is an integral part of many Muslim countries, and that the majority of women are happy with what an American woman would typically describe as a subservient, unequal position in that society. I happen to think that inequality of the sexes, regardless of the culture, is wrong. It is as wrong as inequality based on race, ethnicity, etc. Religion should never be used as a tool to subjugate women, whether here in the United States, and it's happened here, or anywhere else, in my opinion. And I hope someone doesn't tell me that I just don't understand the Muslim religion or culture, and a woman's place in it. I think I have a pretty good grasp of it. I happen to disagree with the treatment of women in too much of that society, in too many parts of the world. Keep D&D Civil.
It doesn't matter, even if she was a Muslim they would find a way to dismiss her view. They can't see it because they don't want to. It would destroy their reality.
Even if you were to find those books, your history would still be pretty flawed. The first wars fought by the Muslims were in self defense from the Quraish and other tribes of Mecca. As pointed out before, the Meccans were not threatened by this new religion because it was so vastly different from anything they had ever practiced. They were afraid that the spread of this religion would render their shrine at the time (the Kaaba) useless, and therefore create a huge decline in their economy. The early converts of Islam converted on their own will and in fact most of them were poor slaves and women. Those early Muslims were persecuted pretty heavily, and to say that Muhammad and his followers simply starting creating havoc the second the religion was founded would be misguided.
No doubt, he was a pretty violent guy before he founded the Muslim religion if I recall my history correctly. DD
Well, if all she's addressing is "Middle East leaders" then she has my full support. As you well know, I am not a fan of most ME governments and believe that they have done their own people a huge disservice over the decades. There is a reason why the 20th century was a dark, dark one for the Arab world and the Muslim world at large. NewYorker, don't flatter yourself. "Destroy my reality"? LOL! Yeah, sure, it will take a lady who has an extremely shaky understanding of Islam -- as far as one can tell by her use of religious texts completely out-of-context to make a point -- and one who brushes over the achievements and accomplishments of an entire civilization to make me 'question' where I stand. Are you seriously asking that question? It is not my responsibility that you have little to no knowledge of the history of Islam or the contributions of Muslims. I would suggest taking a "History of Islam" course or reading some books from a reputable source to find out. That's a very, very silly question, it's like asking "what have the Greek/Romans/Ancient Egyptians/Ancient Chinese/Christians/Jews contributed to humanity"... What do you mean by "forget about the facts"? LOL! What else do I have to judge her on? 'Facts' are what make your argument relevant, otherwise any idiot can open his/her mouth and be anointed an 'expert'... "So many of you" would be two or three posters, I guess that's whom you're referring to? I know at least one is vehemently anti-Islam (and anti-religion in general, but especially anti-Islam) in DaDakota, based on his past (which he was probably banned for in the past, because they were so over-the-top ridiculous, but he has been doing much better of late). As for others, I don't think they're necessarily anti-Islam, although I have no way of knowing for sure. However, I think some of you guys (not many or all by any means) are too 'eager' to take anything and run with it if it somehow supports your views, and that applies to any topic really. Some poster here have explicitly stated in the past that their knowledge of Islam is weak or non-existent, and yet somehow feel 'comfortable' commenting on something they don't understand. I have no respect for someone who passes judgement on any topic based on pure ignorance, that's the height of arrogance.
