Actually it is happening. They held peace vigils for the victims of the 9/11. The marches for women's rights in Iran were posted here on this BBS. There have been peaceful protests a plenty in the Palestinian territories especially when a curfew was imposed. In Iraq there were numerous peaceful protests, though in some of them armed troops opened fire. Again the fact is the stuff you mentioned is happening, but people aren't listening, and it probably isn't happening to the extent that it should be.
I agree 100%. Not only that we should do everything we can build schools, waste disposal, bridges, other humanitarian works so that the radio can broadcast the good work we are doing. If all they see is us unleashing Civil War on Iraq, selling arms to Israel, propping up dictatorships in Suadi Arabia and elsewhere there is going to be natural distrust and we are going to be a target for whoever wants to paint us the big bad boogey man. We need to actually do deeds that win support, instead of assuming from the beginning that we deserve support, and act dismayed, and upset when we don't get it. I'm talking about pro-active work now, followed by a huge PR campaign in every possible way to hype our good deeds.
Imagine how much good we could have done with only 25% of the money we have spent on this assinine war. Start rebuilding the Kurds in the north first, then tell the rest of the country that we are willing to help, just have Saddam step down. Then rebuild the rest of the country........ DD
It's unfortunate that this is basically the heart of your argument, though I am not surprised. I'll ask it again, since once again you fail to answer my questions: 'how does military strength and war equate to violence?' It's humorous, because when we vote for a President, their potential to protect us and keep us safe from international threats is usually at the top of the list of qualities and it's considered strength. The ability to engage in warfare is considered as strength. Yet when Arabs engage in this, it's violence. You are a hypocrite. You really aren't that bright, are you? You're proving my point again. You just said yourself they want "to get as much media attention as possible." And again, it's really pathetic that we can't discuss these issues without you continuously accusing me of "admiring" terrorists. It really shows how little you are. I'll ask it again: "why is this a recent phenomenon since U.S intervention in the Middle East has grown?" I don't expect you to answer except with your same bullsh*t because you're knowledge of the region is limited to a few conservative talking points. Your statement that "the U.S. trying to bring some order to the Middle East has been there forever" is ridiculous and makes me wonder why I'm even bothering wasting my time with someone as ignorant as yourself. Shortly after the Ottoman Empire fell, the Arab lands were divided through mandates. In the 40's, Roosevelt began the alliance with the Saudis for the right to oil in exchange for arms and protection. We also began our support of Israel. Along the way, you had U.S. support of Israel in '67, political support of the Shah in Iran, the Gulf War, and many other interventions, as well as U.S. support of authoritarian regimes in places such as Egypt. Terrorism began as a political reaction to this, albeit unjustified. Your assertion that we've been trying to bring order to the Middle East for a long time is completely asinine. Uhh, actually no. I would say that the root cause was that the Muslim guy insulted Jesus and your mother. That doesn't mean you were justified in blowing up the bus, but it's still the root cause. This isn't that difficult a concept. Again, you don't answer my question. "Considering that it is a recent phenomenon historically, and Islam has a 1500 year history, then that is completely illogical. So tell me. Why is it that they're suddenly commiting terrorism? If it's not inherent within Islam, then is it just for kicks?" If it is inherent, why is it just now occurring? Your anti-intellectual approach to things is so sad and it's futile to even reason with you. I'm not even saying the political objective is legitimate - I'm saying simply that it is done to accomplish a political objective. How hard is this for you to grasp? So tell me, what exactly do you propose the United States should do? From what I can gather, you believe that the terrorism is not done due to any political objective or for any root cause and is due to Islam and possibly inherent within Islam. So what is the solution then if you don't want to address root causes? Should we kill all the Muslims in the world? If the problem is Islam, tell me what the logical solution is. 1) See above. What's the solution then if you don't address root causes? 2) Just because there are root causes doesn't mean they are necessarily legitimate or justify the action as in your analogy. Hilarious. Due to your ignorance, you don't even know the difference between the Nation of Islam and mainstream Islam. Those weren't "Muslim fascists." The Nation of Islam has nothing to do with Islam and is simply a religion founded on the principles of esteem for the black man. Muslim fascists? I'm still laughing. Malcolm was killed by followers of Elijah Muhammad because he was becoming too powerful and influential. You sure do talk alot for someone who really has no idea what he's talking about! This is so laughable. Here you have a country that took steps to root out extremism like you wanted, and you still blame them when they are unable to complete the task. Absolutely unbelievable. Wow. You might be the most simple person I know. Absolutely nothing works with you. You can't debate me on any of my points, so all you do is dodge my questions and accuse me of supporting Saddam/terrorists or hating the West. You're really putting on a show here. Actually no. Israel has an extensive history in collective punishment. And contrary to your statement, the goal of the war was to hold civilians accountable for what was deemed as support of Hezbollah. The Israelis said it themselves: "We will turn back the clock in Lebanon by 20 years." Army chief of staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz "To those countries who claim that we are using disproportionate force, I have only this to say: You're damn right we are." And most importantly, the quote stating that everyone in Lebanon was a terrorist. They wouldn't gain power if Israel didn't continue its illegal actions. Not necessarily. It doesn't mean I support them, it just means there's a root cause. You can't just complain about Arab attacks and blindly dismiss the building of illegal settlements on the most fertile land as a reason. That's ridiculous. Again, no. I'm saying it is done with a political objective.
That is clearly the case. If someone says "I do not necessarily support suicide attacks" (against Israelis), then that shows pretty clearly what you are made of. Admit it. You support them. It is evident from your anti-semitic, Israel-hating posts. You keep asking if violence is inherent within Islam. Answer your own question. Oh, and your ridiculous question whether war equates to violence is the biggest joke. That's like asking "is water wet?".
Then that's the problem - it's not happening enough. It needs to happen a lot more if there is a chance of peace in the region. Arabs and Muslims must create decide their own fate...between violence and continued disrespect or by taking another path as a collective whole. Even is the Muslim world - it's a democracy - if enough Muslims really did speak out, and the tide turned on the Muslim street, groups like Al Qaeda would lose their teeth.
He's rationalizing the behavior of terrorists for sure, but I don't think that makes him anti-semitic. Why not hear his POV out and not judge him? For you own sake, give him the benefit of the doubt. Only he truly knows if he is anti-semetic or not...that's true for everyone (except Hitler)
Pray tell where I said "I do not necessarily support suicide attacks"? I said " Not necessarily. It doesn't mean I support them, it just means there's a root cause.", saying "not necessarily" in response to your argument. It's very telling that this is what your entire argument has been reduced to - that I'm an anti-semite. How original. You can't debate me on points, continuously refuse to answer my questions, completely ignore arguments within my posts when they go over your head and you have no rebuttal, so you go back to the only weapon you have left. Sorry, but contrary to the effect you intend, calling me an anti-semite will not deter me from criticizing Zionist policy. I don't know how you derived that I'm anti-semite from anything in my posts. I stand by all of my statements and will not waver at your childish, cowardly tactics. You answer it for me then, for the 100th time, is it? The only member of your fan club, Dakota, said it himself in a previous post that terrorism is a recent phenomenon. So tell me, is violence inherent within Islam? Don't worry, I don't expect you to respond with anything substantive seeing as how you completely ignored that portion of my post and are largely ignorant outside of anything other than a few talking points you cling to. I see you once again ignore my responses. I guess you're probably done, seeing as you completely ignore my posts and fail to respond to anything. Thanks for your time and thanks for a good laugh. That 'Nation of Islam' as 'Muslim fascists' was a classic among others.
thacabbage: "I am not necessarily an anti-semite. I do not necessarily support suicide attacks. War does not necessarily equate violence."
Come on, SJC... don't make noise about a need for civility after posting that. Completely uncalled for. Keep D&D Civil.
Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. You want to know what Middle Easterners hate? We hate when you sit behind your computers and discuss among yourselves which stereotype should apply to all Middle Easterners. Are they terrorists? Are they not? Hmmmm... Let's discuss. Ridiculous. The Middle East is humongous, and more culturally diverse than any of you have pointed out. To even attempt to have this discussion is beyond idiotic. From Yemen to Dubai to Israel to Syria to Saudi Arabia. It's like combining Americans, Cubans, Mexicans and Canadians. You want to talk about war? Violence? Terrorism? Someone look up, statistically, which country has murdered the most innocent people. You want to talk about helping countries? Have that chat with the orphans in South Lebanon who had their shelters blown up. The Iraqis who are still devastated. The Afghanis who don't know what the hell really changed other than appearances. The Israelis who didn't survive a sunny day at a coffee shop. Oh and DaDa, your beliefs are from an ordinary person, just like anyone else's beliefs (according to you). To think that 10% of your half a foot brain can settle the kind of debate which decides what faith is "good" is ridiculous. Time and time again, you've shown your utter lack of knowledge about Islam and the Qura'an while repeating the same 3 or 4 thoughts in every debate, never expanding further than you usually do, and never backing up your ideas with any tangible info. I would think that a genius like you who can confidently refute any religion in the history of mankind would get to know what they're talking about before they actually say it. Oh, and no, Satanic Verses is not enough. thacabbage, Refreshing stuff. I'm truly impressed by how knowledgeable you are about Islam. However, again, terrorists are terrorists. It's the tag that's been thrown around. Unfortunately, more Muslims engage in suicide bombings than anyone else. However, the circumstances bred that development. It's a chicken or egg situation. Islam/Arabs have been in steady decline for ages now, and as we all know, poverty and poor education leads to this kind of corruption. Perhaps I misunderstood you. Correct me I'm wrong. The impression I got which I didn't agree with whatsoever is that there should be sympathy for people who kill innocent people.
Thank you for making my point about religion, how could Islam or Christianity or the Jewish faith be correct when it has all been made up by..using your own words here..people using 10% of a half a foot brain? You sir are correct, the only realistic answer is that all of the religions are simply wrong, just like the Roman Gods, or the Greek Gods, or the Summarian Gods, or the Egyption gods, or the Aztec Gods or....yadda yadda yadda.... They are all just GUESSES by man. Sure, in some cases extrodinary men, Mohammed, Jesus, etc....but still just men. My answer is, and always has been that I do not know what lies in the afterlife, or if anything is there at all. However, I am fairly confident that you don't either. For centuries man has been trying to describe the afterlife or define god, but how can we even attempt such a task, when we have a hard time contemplating the universe itself. Everything for man is finite, how can we comprehend the infinite? So, we make up stories, myths, fables if you will to explain it, and it is out of those myths that religion is born. All the religions have borrowed on the ideas from previous religions - this we know as fact, how can any sentient being actually belive that a book written by man can be anthing other than a set of guidelines which are skewed by the politics and circumstances surrounding the authors at the time of writing. As for the Middle East, you are 100% correct, it is a diverse place, and it is not fair that it is getting painted with such broad strokes and labled as the hot bed for terrorism. However, that is EXACTLY what people are thinking, so until the people in the Middle East root out the backwards thinking Islamic fundamentalists, people will continue to unfairly lump everyone in the Middle East together. Since you want to make a difference, let me offer some advice. Writing to a message board is great, but you should be writing to the papers in Iran and Syria and Saudi Arabia and denouncing their role in the continued bludgeoning of the perception of the Middle Eastern man. Take charge of your own house before you presume to understand ours, as people in the west are not running around blowing up innocent civilians, all in the name of religion. Sure we have our wack jobs, but they are marginalized, we don't let them run our countries. DD
