so back to torture: Douglas A. Johnson: Torture simply doesn't work Douglas A. Johnson November 27, 2005 The accumulation of evidence about our own government's descent into torture and ill treatment paints a stark picture: a global network of secret detention cells, torture and deaths of detainees in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo, and worldwide networks to support a policy known as rendition, where the United States sends detainees to countries that torture. Despite this bleak reality, I believe Americans share a common vision that the U.S. stands for human dignity, fairness and the rule of law. But the incongruence between our values and our government's actions is great, and clearly exemplified by the president's declaration that the U.S. does not torture while at the same time the vice president aggressively lobbies Congress to oppose legislation that would prevent torture. The Star Tribune's own report ("The real debate: What is torture?" Nov. 13) alludes to our government's attempt to rewrite the rules of human rights and redefine torture. Senior military lawyers opposed the changes to interrogation policies so vigorously, reports say, that the administration simply stopped inviting them to meetings where these policies were being written. Any discussion about the use of torture should be based on an understanding of how torture is used in the world. Some in the administration argue that harsher tactics are needed. Indeed, popular culture promotes the idea that it is simply a matter of applying a little pressure to get information that will save lives. We know that to be false. Torture is not a theoretical discussion at the Center for Victims of Torture. We know what torture is and we know its impact. Torture does not work. We know from working with victims that torture is an ineffective way to gather information. Nearly all our clients, when subjected to torture, confessed to a crime they did not commit, gave up extraneous information, or supplied names of innocent friends or colleagues. This is a great source of shame for our clients, who tell us they would have said anything to get the pain to stop. But don't take just our word for it. Experienced and well-trained interrogators within the military, the FBI and the police say that torture does not yield reliable information. Such extraneous information distracts, rather than supports, valid investigations. F. Andy Messing, a retired major in U.S. Special Forces and director of the National Defense Council, told Insight magazine, "Anybody with real combat experience understands that torture is counterproductive." Not only is torture ineffective, but it is never used in isolated cases, as some would have us believe. The Israeli Security Service claimed to use "moderate physical pressure," sometimes called stress and duress techniques, only where they had the most reliable information about the detainee's guilt. Yet a study found they were used on over 8,000 detainees. It is simply not credible that they had such precise information about so many. The Israeli Supreme Court determined such techniques were illegitimate and outlawed them in 1999. At the time the photos were taken at Abu Ghraib, the Red Cross estimated that at least 80 percent of those imprisoned should never have been arrested, but were there because it was easier to arrest persons than to let them go. They were all vulnerable to abuse not because of their guilt but because they were there. But a torture survivor is standing up for the America we hold in our hearts, the America that stands for the rule of law and our Constitution. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., a Vietnam POW, has offered language that would provide our men and women in uniform with clear guidelines on acceptable interrogation and detention practices, and prohibit cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment for all U.S. personnel. I am proud that both Minnesota senators, Norm Coleman and Mark Dayton, were part of the 90-9 majority in the Senate voting in favor of this legislation. The administration says it will veto any bill that contains this anti-torture language, and the House majority leadership is holding up the House-Senate conference committee that will determine whether the language is kept intact. There could not be a more critical time when American voices are needed. The Senate demonstrated that torture is not a partisan issue. All of us must contact our representatives and urge them to support the McCain amendment. In addition, we must tell our president we do not need to use torture or any form of cruelty to protect our security. We do need him to protect our values. If we do not, then we must accept responsibility for our government's shameful actions. As McCain says, this is not about who they are, it is about who we are. Douglas A. Johnson is the executive director of the Center for Victims of Torture, based in Minneapolis. Copyright 2005 Star Tribune. All rights reserved http://www.startribune.com/stories/562/5746990.html
So we're talking two different things. I'm not saying he was tortured or not definitively - there's a case to both sides. I'm just saying he's most likely guilty of some illegal activity - as much as an jury finds a person guilty.
The problem is people have different definitions of "the sanctity of marriage" as they have different perceptions of reality. If you think homosexuality is immoral, then you're going to think gay marriage is even more immoral. It's not a logical thing. Should the state create some sort of "gay union" in order to allow for estate management and other legalities normally afforded to married couples? I think so...but then there has to be gay divorce and all the other laws that come with marriage. But I don't think a church or any religion should be made to recognize gay marriage - that would be a violation of the seperation of church and state in my opinion. You have to respect everyone's religious views, even if you don't agree with them.
BIGTEXXX LOGIC LESSON #1 (by surrender) OK: Lumping in liberals with a person who plotted to assassinate Bush because both groups dislike the president http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=2081502&postcount=1 NOT OK: Lumping in people who voted for prop 2 with the KKK because both groups are against gay marriage http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=2063076&postcount=188
Yeah I think we are talking about different things. I haven't seen enough about the particulars of the case to to form an opinion on whether he might be innocent.
