[APBRMetrics Board] Scary +/- stat regarding our guards

I think it could happen but only with a completely healthy Yao Ming.

But if not, I would get rid of Martin ASAP.

DD

 

And your love for Brooks puts you at the other end of the spectrum:

 

Not nesecarily true.

Hayes is a veteran (played all five years) and played multiple years alongside Yao at his natural position which helps weight the defensive numbers higher.

Brooks played sparingly and spent the bulk of his time without either JVG/TT or Yao.

Takes this same measurement for the past 1 year and you would see a different result.

While it is concerning that Martin and Brooks are dead last you can't ignore the lack of any interior defenders or shotblockers.

In 2008 we were Brooks/Artest/Battier/Scola/Yao and top 5/10 in defense.

in 2009 we were Brooks/Ariza/Battier/Scola/Hayes and top 15/20 in defense.

In 2010 we are Brooks/Martin/Battier/Scola/Hayes and top 25/30 in defense.

SG and C position has changed. Get Yao back and you likely see a significant jump in defense back to 15 or so. If thats not good enough slide Hayes into the starting lineup with Yao and you should regain your top ten defense.

These numbers are deceptive, specifically because they follow a 5 year path.

 

No, you can't ignore it...that's why we're discussing adjusted plus minus which factors this in...I'm saying htat if you're discussing "raw" plus minus (which we're not) - saying "it's not fair because he haad to play a lot of minutes with an Ace defender!" is a stupid thing to say. Even this year, with a poor Rockets defensive team, Chuck still has a high net-impact on defensive efficiency via on-off ratings.

Let's face it, every time big boy sees evidence that indicates Brooks is a pretty average player on balance, he just makes some bullsh-t up no matter how ridiculously inconsistent it is, because it lilts across his slow, turtle brain, and he decides to blurt it out here for us.

Brooks sucks at getting assists and running an offense? Oh it's his teammates fault, he has to play with Battier and Hayes not fair not fair!

Brooks sucks on defense? Well, you can hardly blame him, after all he has to play with Chuck Hayes!

Brooks and Yao go 0-3 out of the gate? Well, you can't blame Brooks, he has to play with Yao who messes up the offense.

It's an endless stream of fetid waste..the same logically r****ded stream of arguments we see time in and time out from that dude, and it's been in overdrive for the past 18 months....it's super-annoying and ruins threads.

 

I would be concerned about Martin, as there are 5 years of data there, but Brooks had to play most of his career with Hayes.

It skews the data considerably.

DD

 

You would be concerned about Martin, but not Brooks? Which defensive bigs has Martin played with?

 

Brad Miller - see, according to DD it's fair to judge Martin becuase he has good defenders likek Brad Miller, while Brooks is unfairly judged saddled with lollygaggers like Chuck Hayes.

Granted, this is why the stats are adjusted in the first place but why bother with intelligent discussion on that point?

 

DaDakota and Larsv8 defense of Brooks' defense....didn't think that would be possible.

 

Because Brooks gets uneccessarily beat on by people.

He is not a great defender but you can win with him as he is so uniquely skilled on the offensive side.

People that bash him are silly, they don't get the game very well.

Larvs and I agree with Morey and Adelman, who do you agree with???????



DD

 

Maybe so, but when those "people" include most opposing pgs, then it becomes a problem.

 

Well first of all I don't have a lot of faith in adjusted because its a team game, it always has been and always will be. To try and dismiss nine other players on the court seems foolhardy.

I am not going to address this, you seem to have some sort of personal issue with DD, that I do not share. I disagree with him on things such as McGrady and Bosh, but I agree with all his points on Brooks.

Brooks is great at running the offense, which is why his assist numbers are low. Its also why Miller, Hayes and Battier all put up 5+ with practically no ball handling.

Brooks does suck on defense and we can blame him. But perhaps we can hide his defensive defencies by pairing him with a defensive big? What can we do to hide Lowry's offensive defencies?

I try not to blame anyone, although I am guilty at times. Games are won and lost as a team. You say we went 0-3, but I saw use being competitive against really good teams. Seems like what you see in DD, you might be guilty of in the reverse.

You may personally find it annoying, but it hardly ruins threads. The guy believes what he believes. He makes his position known and he argues his point, nothing wrong with that.

There is a tendency for the masses to villianize certain players. Why it happens who knows? Heck I like both Lowry and Brooks, but because people like to scapegoat Brooks, I find myself constantly defending him. Because of this, I feel the need to emphasize some of Lowry's weaknesses just so people understand that there are reasons, and very good reasons, for why Brooks is on the court.

 

Oh, you mean like Lowry is......because he is having the same issues about playing without a big as AB did.

Gotcha !

Exactly.

And Sam does make it personal, he trails me around and tries to incite me into an argument by making personal comment after personal comment.

He has done it for years, not sure why.....

It is why I have him on perma ignore. It is funny how people whine about the BBS, which is a place to have discussions, yet they somehow want it to conform to their own ruleset.

Either way, you can always count on him following one of my posts on a topic that he is sensitive about and making a personal jab.....he is obsessed with me, and probably needs a hug...

DD

 

Sample size is too small to tell anything about Brooks

Also +/- is not a very useful statistic because it doesn't factor in matchups.

 

That's why adjusted stats exist in the first place. Please read this if you want to learn more.

http://www.82games.com/ilardi1.htm

I guess Steve Nahs is horrible at running one, that's why his assist numbers are so high.

He's arguing that adjusted +/-, which adjusts +/- based on the lineup on the court, shouldn't be credited, because he's too ignorant to realize that it's called "adjusted" because it's adjusted for the lineup that's ont he court.

Sorry but that is just outright stupid, and not conducive to the meticulously self-constructed image of the basketball ingenue who sits in his basement posting 65 times a day, yelling to strangers about how his persecutors don't understand the game.

 

Who makes the adjustments, what are the criteria? How valid is the data/formula that goes in to get those ratings?

There are no perfect formulas......there are just best guesses, which is why it annoys me that folks read stuff like this like it is the bible...actually that is a great analogy, people blindly following stats....

I don't discount everything Durvasa, but I also realize that data can be manipulated or skewed to look one way, when there are factors that are not being considered.

Also, where does the rest of the team rank?

DD

 

I don't really need the stats to see that Kevin Martin is a terrible defender. Half of it is his stature, but he also sometimes seems to "fake defend"...he'll run around with the guy he is guarding, and he will put his arms up at some point, but it looks half-assed. People get by him at will. In the meantime, he already seems to think about his next scoring opportunity.

Battier is the opposite.