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AOC gets what she wants: [NYT] Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Headquarters

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Feb 14, 2019.

  1. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    Is it really corporate welfare or an incentive ?

    I really can answer your bottom line question ….

    I'm not certain the situation in La. is the same as that in Long Island - who's giving the tax breaks , state or local ? The state can distribute funds elsewhere …. local is much more limited.

    You know there was a time when health insurance was an incentive …. companies offered it originally as a form of compensation to entice the best employee's to work for them instead of the competition …. Now we demand it. (that's not an indicator of my stance on healthcare , just a bit of history)
     
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  2. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    I was going to make a similar point earlier about the difference between "corporate welfare" (which obviously is a kind of pejorative putting negative spin on a wide variety of economic phenomena) and incentives.

    If I'm a landlord trying to rent a 1000 sq ft apartment, how will I compete with the landlord next door renting a 900 sq ft apartment that includes utilities, heat, off-street parking, and basement storage? I am unwilling to provide the same. Those are incentives. They may motivate a potential renter to lease a smaller space because of the other amenities that will save him/her money and time down the line.

    Providing a tenant with off-street parking or a washer/dryer is not "renter welfare." Those are incentives that sweeten the deal. Prospective renters are free to take them or leave them.

    NYC provided amazon with incentives. In the end amazon took its marbles and went home. The incentives were not enough to put up with the inconvenience of dealing with NYC's political bullshit. The loss is NYC's, who will now be staring for the next ten or twenty years at that empty space where amazon might have been.
     
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  3. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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  4. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    more on the corporate welfare vs. incentives theme from Jack Marshall:

    The Opposition: The opposition was based on pure anti-corporate ideology posed in the most infantile and realism-free manner, just desserts, perhaps, for a state that has pandered to socialists and a city with a mayor who is one. The anti-Amazon message was as simple as, and simple-minded as, this: It is immoral to give money to rich people and rich corporations. The money should be given to poor people instead. Financial writer Andrew Sorkin tweeted,

    “There is a financial literacy epidemic in America. Quick lesson: NYC wasn’t handing cash to Amazon. It was an incentive program based on job creation, producing tax revenue. There isn’t a $3 billion pile of money that can now be spent on subways or education.”

    Correct, correct, correct, and correct.

    The Left’s conduct in opposing the deal was irresponsible and based on absolutist ethical theory over utilitarianism. But governing is always utilitarian, as is business. This is why ideologies like socialism destroy both.​

    https://ethicsalarms.com/2019/02/15/ethics-observations-on-the-amazon-nyc-blow-up/
     
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  5. Major

    Major Member

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    The difference is that any tenant has equal access to that deal - if the landlord negotiates it specifically with that one tenant, then it's a subsidy for that tenant, while others don't get the same opportunity. This was a deal specifically negotiated with Amazon - if they get to pay lower taxes than already-existing or other future businesses, then they have a government-subsidized unfair competitive advantage over them.
     
  6. Major

    Major Member

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    Even ignoring the lack of fair competition, these types of incentive deals are not new, and most of the data on these deals suggest it doesn't really work out the way you describe.
     
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  7. Major

    Major Member

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    The politicians who competed for it all over the country aren't going to be in office in 25 years - they care about the benefits now, regardless of the future costs when it won't be their problem anymore. That's their incentive structure. We see that all the time at the local, state, and federal levels. It's what conservatives complain about with creating social programs like SS and Medicare.
     
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  8. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    perhaps. but there are other policy ends at stake as well, no? we give American farmers subsidies to continue farming because we think agriculture is important, not just because of the economy but we also think a healthy food supply is important for human flourishing and welfare. In that sense American agriculture is given an "unfair advantage" over other "already-existing or other future businesses" (indeed, agriculture is largely tax-exempt, at least in New York state where farmers pay no sales tax while other businesses do). Is that unfair? you tell me.

    Amazon could elect to build its headquarters out in the middle of an Iowa cornfield, but it doesn't in part because of state and federal policies that (fairly or unfairly) keep those cornfields in agricultural production as opposed to high-tech anything else. again, is that fair or unfair? we generally think it all works out in the wash . . . sort of the cost of doing business.
     
  9. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    Is that why cities continue to do these kind of deals ? Because they are bad for them ?


    Katy just did something similar with Amazon in 2017. Harris County has a deal with them too ….

     
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  10. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    Whether it was corporate welfare or incentives is semantics. Bottom line, NYC wanted the tax revenue (the incentives would be paid out of the tax revenue collected and NYC would still gain net revenue) and the jobs. It would have been a net financial gain for the city, it wasn't taking money away.

    Now, NYC politics are complex and the issue is being misrepresented here by @Os Trigonum who appears to be more concerned with attacking AOC than describing what the actual issue.

    The person responsible for really killing this is Michael Gianaris who switched sides from supporting it to opposing it (for unknown reasons) - that's critical because he sits on the state board that has the ability to veto the deal in 2020 which is what Amazon is afraid to now but certainly happen.

    AOC played a role to be sure, but she was not the driving force. A lot of people wanted Amazon here, particularly low-income and blue collar workers. But in recent years you have these younger white voters moving into neighborhoods who think corporations are evil and thus don't want them moving in to their neighborhoods - despite the fact that they are the ones who gentrified those neighborhoods to begin with. The Unions would have stomached Amazon's approach and worked something out with them, other companies have done the same. But the brouhaha over the tax incentives was puzzling to me as NYC will end up with less money now - I think there was misinformation and people thought NYC was writing a check to Amazon for 3 billion not a tax break. It would have been good for the city, and I think it was a mistake to oppose this. I think if Gianaris hadn't switched positions Amazon would have stuck it out and came.
     
  11. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    I disagree that I have misrepresented anything, I have mostly just been relaying the political fallout from the various opinion leaders who have commented on the situation. I am also fully aware of Michael Gianaris's role in thwarting the deal and have posted numerous links to articles highlighting his role in the affair.

    So don't misrepresent me. please.
     
  12. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    You do that to yourself with your thread titles. Perhaps you are just going for clickbait to get more eyeballs, but I am not going to let it slide - you are misrepresenting the issues by your misleading thread title which links AOC as the cause of the collapse of the deal when at best she is a bit player.
     
  13. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    great, have at it
     
  14. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    I just did
     
  15. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    awesome
     
  16. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    related article in the Babylon Bee:

    Ocasio-Cortez Declares Victory Over The Modern-Day Equivalent Of Slavery: Jobs
    February 15th, 2019
    [​IMG]

    WASHINGTON, D.C.—Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is busy celebrating her victory over the tyrannical Jeff Bezos and the horrible burden his company Amazon had planned to inflict on the people of New York City: 25,000 jobs.

    “I thought it was a good thing that Amazon was coming to New York and wanted to give us money,” Ocasio-Cortez told the press. “But then I found out they were going to extort people and only give them the money if they worked for it. Forcing people to work if they want to get paid -- how is that any different from slavery?”

    A number of people tried to explain to her how that was different from slavery, but she just stared at them with incomprehension. “No one needs to work,” Ocasio-Cortez continued. “We just need to tax the rich enough and we’ll have enough money for everyone, and no one will need one of those awful jobs that are just as bad as slavery and almost as bad as transphobia. We could also maybe print some money. I have a printer at home.”

    Not everyone was as happy about the loss of 25,000 new jobs. “You fool! What have you done?!” New York Governor Andrew Cuomo shouted at Ocasio-Cortez as he ran into her press conference.

    “I made us 3 billion dollars!” Ocasio-Cortez explained. “We were going to give Amazon 3 billion dollars in tax breaks, but now we have that money for other things since I chased them away.”

    “That’s not how it works!” Cuomo yelled, now openly weeping.

    “No, I’m very good with numbers,” Ocasio-Cortez said. She held up a notebook with a few hastily scrawled numbers on it. She pointed to one. “This one is a four.”

    Ocasio-Cortez has vowed to chase out even more companies from her district, freeing her constituents from burdensome work and gaining the treasury more money in tax breaks it doesn’t have to pay. Cuomo has vowed to curl into a ball and cry.

    https://babylonbee.com/news/ocasio-...ver-the-modern-day-equivalent-of-slavery-jobs
     
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  17. TheresTheDagger

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  18. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    25,000 "mom and pops" . . . yeah, that's the ticket, that should work. Brilliant.
     
  19. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Member

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    It’s official:

    • Republicans are the party of “they tookr jerbs”.
    • Democrats are the party of “take yer jerbs elsewhere”.
     
  20. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    That's hilarious …. this is what you get when you have someone with a 4th grade mentality of economics running the show.
     

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