There go (or is it Here come) those pesky semantics again! ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils.
I would not agree to the proposed trade. Three first round picks for Lewis is too much. I was disappointed when they did not draft Rashard. I am a little biased towards Lewis considering we attended the same high school but I don't think any GM would agree to that deal. Instead I would trade the 13 and 18 or 13 and 23 to move up in the top 8 and I would draft one of the small forwards that are available and plentiful in this draft.(preferably Johnson or White if either of them are remaining) Nike- I normally agree with most of your opinions but I do not think Lewis will be able to play the 4 any time soon. He simply does not have the body to pound with the big boys. Imagine Lewis playing against Duncan, Malone, Webber or even Wallace. I watched plenty of his games at school and I tryed to key on him every Sonics game that was televised, he just does not like to mix it up. ------------------ Fuggetabout it [This message has been edited by bigboymumu (edited June 15, 2001).] [This message has been edited by bigboymumu (edited June 15, 2001).]
mumu-of course he can't play 4 full time. But, he certainly can play 4 as adequately, if not more so, than Walt Williams and Matt Bullard, who often saw time at the 4 slot. Swopa is most likely right, though. Rashard probably won't be traded. ------------------ "I think alot of people find Cato's game to be very offensive." -aelliott, comparing the offensive skills of Kelvin Cato and Michael Olowokandi
PinetreeFM60, How did he gain this personal information about you? Mango ------------------ Get it right or just don't do it! Resistance is futile....you will be assimilated. Start more Webber threads!
I think you guys are overrating Rashard a tad. Rashard is the type of player I would label as complementary plus which basically means thats he is a very good role player but is not capable of being a #1 option. Rashard has slightly more off the dribble ability than someone like Robert Horry but by no means is he a #1 option type. Lewis would fit this team well, but three picks plus Moochie and KT is way too steep. Despite what some may think, Moochie is a very integral part of this team. I dont get what the love affair is with KT, but Moochie has to stay. I would much rather the Rockets gun for Shane Battier or Joe Johnson in a trade up scenario than empty the decks for Lewis. Both Battier and Johnson will be better in the long run than Lewis. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
I'll not attempt to respond by name to each comment addressed. Like a couple of the posters, I consider Rashard Lewis to be an emerging talent, if not star. I felt the same way about TMac, whose primary difference is better blocks but poorer treys. The kid is only 20, and can only get better. At 6'10 and long, with a 43% trey, he is tailor made for Rudyball. My assessment of him is not merely based upon his third year stats, but upon the fully mature player I expect him to be when Steve and Cat are contending in a few years for the championship. I see him as a very important part of the long term puzzle. The Moochie issue has been blown out of proportion. HE IS NOT UNDER CONTRACT TO US. WE DO NOT OWN HIM. If you read my posts you will see that I said I thought Seattle might want to talk about him as part of a deal. Yes, he was there in the past, but his game is much more now than it was then. Do I want to see him leave or traded? No. Would I include him in a sign and trade if Seattle wanted it and he wanted it? Of course. Some fail to see that Moochie might actually want to go somewhere else if he could start and get bigger minutes. Kenny Thomas is a hard worker and brings a lot to the table. I would hate to see him gone, but I don't think he is good enough to start on a quality team, yet he is too good to sit. He could start on a rebuilding team. When I talk about trades, I try to put myself in the other team's shoes. The problem with most "homers" is that they propose trades which are ridiculously loaded in favor of the Rockets. You cannot get quality without giving up quality. It always hurts when you make a trade that really helps you. I hated seeing Othella and Michael go, but it had to be done. I didn't want to see Horry and Cassell gone either, but I understood why they were traded. As the Meyer Lansky character in THE GODFATHER said, "this is the business we are in." I'm sure Rudy has to chug Maalox every time he has to send one of his favorites away by pulling the trigger on a deal. Yeah, the deal I proposed was a little rich on what we might have to give up, but it is closer to reality than most would like to believe. Two picks (13 and 18) plus Thomas might get it done, but I don't see it costing any less. As for Moochie, I don't think he will be going anywhere. Besides, Seattle might re-sign Shammond Williams. His three point percentage was off the chart, although his twos were abysmal. Moochie was just the opposite, hitting a good percentage on twos, but not doing so on treys. But their games are similar otherwise. ------------------ [This message has been edited by PinetreeFM60 (edited June 16, 2001).]
Hey you gave it when I didn't give it. Take it away! ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils.
I am in agreement with the majority on this thread. I think Rashard is a blooming talent, but not one that will ever match T-Mac's numbers of last year. It will be interesting to see if T-Mac can even reach those #s again if they upgrade that team and he has to share the load. Regarding our trade prospects, I would give up two picks and KT if we absolutely KNOW we have either Mo or Webb in the house. But whatever else we do, KEEP THE MOOCH !! ------------------ Our purpose in life is to find our gift, and the meaning of life is to give it away!
Pine, Rashard Lewis has no where near the potential of Tracy McGrady imo. How do you get to that conclusion? You cant evaluate players by simply looking at their body type and whether or not they're a big name. In order to come up with a proper conclusion, you have to put their skills under the microscope. Lets take a look at your McGrady vs Lewis comparison. Can Tracy McGrady create his shot on a consistent basis off the dribble? Yes. Can Rashard Lewis? No. Can Tracy McGrady handle the ball like a guard? Yes. Can Rashard Lewis? Nowhere close, he's only marginally better than Robert Horry in that area. Is T-Mac versatile enough to beat players both with his post up game and off the dribble and pull up game? Yes. Is Rashard Lewis? No. Most of Rashard's offense comes off spot up 3s, putbacks and feeds. Bottom line, what makes you think Lewis will be another T-Mac? If we were talking about Darius Miles I'd agree with you, Miles is going to be better than T-Mac once he develops his jumper. Also, you didnt address the point that there is better than Lewis in this draft alone in Battier and Joe Johnson. If your willing to sell the farm for Lewis, why not see whats avail in this draft first. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
I don't think you can compare McGrady to Lewis. They are completely different. McGrady is much, much more talented than Lewis. That being said, Lewis will be very very good for a long time. He will probably be an All-Star at least once, but will not be an annual player as McGrady will be. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
I will agree that Lewis does not have the same game as TMac, and that TMac will probably be the better player over the course of their careers. Lewis is a 3/4 and TMac a 3/2, so they shouldn't have the same game. However, TMac is not an option. The proper comparison is other players, currently in the league, and those who will be drafted. For all the hype, there is no assurance that any of the players you mention will be healthy or successful in the NBA. As good as you think you know those players to be, you cannot know how they will actually play at the NBA level. Take Battier, for instance. He may never prove to be as outstanding as he was at the college level. Until he is tested over a long season against the size and skill level that is the NBA, we will not know how well he will perform. His size made him a big player in college. In the league, he will be average sized for a 3. No more college arc. No more Duke team. Will he be good? Probably. Will he be as good as Lewis? Maybe, but maybe not. Given the straight up choice of Lewis or Battier, I would choose Lewis. He's two years younger than Batter, two inches taller, battle tested, and we KNOW he can drain the trey from the NBA arc. I appreciate that others would go for the sizzle of a high draft pick, but I am not in that group. ------------------
Dickerson was 13th pick and Othella was a second rounder. Carr and Price were fillers. For that we got Steve Francis (#2 Pick). Cassell was a #22 pick and Horry was a 9th (I think). For that we got Charles Barkley. Barkley and Francis are superstars. Rashard is not. Why would you give up so much more to get him. I agree that it would probably take that much because Seattle wants to build around him. But the Rocks' would never do something that lopsided. If you choose to get defensive whenever someone blows holes in one of your theories then I guess that is something you will just have to live with. I say you and not us because eventually you will be ignored and will eventually fade away like so many other tourists have done in the past. This is the finest fan run site on the net. People around here learn how to have intelligent (sometimes ) conversations and can usually take some good natured ribbing. If this is not your style, then perhaps this isn't the best place for you. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Rocketsauce (edited June 15, 2001).]
sirhangover: Holy frickin' crap! I'M FROM LUFKIN, ORIGINALLY! Wow. Didn't know there was someone else from Lufkin on this board. Didn't know there was anyone in Lufkin that knew how to find a website other than aol.com . TPL: I disagree, I don't like Payton, but I do think he makes the players around him better. Lewis probably got a lot of wide open shotsthat Tracy McGrady didn't. Didn't see but one Sonics game this year, though. So I could be wrong. ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment... [This message has been edited by haven (edited June 16, 2001).]
You are able to edit your profile and delete the info that is exposed when others click on the notecard icon with smiling face that appears when you post. I just checked your profile and you have edited the location part while still leaving the occupation info intact. Please edit your profile again if you wish to keep that private. As most here operate with amusing monikers (nicknames), members will check profiles to possibly glean factors that motivate someone to take a certain position. Mango ------------------ Get it right or just don't do it! Resistance is futile....you will be assimilated. Start more Webber threads!
Haven, Payton isn't the playmaker he once was, and he's not even close to the level of a Kidd in regards to making the players around him better. He's actually more of a 2 guard now, as the Sonics need him for his scoring more than his defense, and Davis usually takes the better player in the backcourt on defense. Lewis really is an afterthought in the Sonics offense. Payton's a reluctant passer since he's contempt towards the rest of his teammates. Lewis has been relegated to a spot up shooter due to this. When Westphal was coach, Lewis got more touches, but McMillan didn't seem as confident in Rashard, and consequently his production went down. Lewis' main advantage is that he can post up many players who defend him, yet you hardly see him given opportunities down low. Do I think he's McGrady? No, he's not even close, but I do think he would thrive in the current Rockets offensive system. Unlike McGrady, Lewis isn't much of a creator, but his defense and range on his shot make him a nice fit at the 3 for this team. He's not the ideal 3 however, as I'm higher on point forwards like Radmanovic to play small forward for this team. Lewis' isn't a player who can initiate a fast break, which is something I look for in a small forward. Lewis would be a nice addition, but not at the price that some have mentioned. ------------------
In my family EVERYONE is a rabid Rocket fan. My mother, sons, sisters, nephews - we are all nuts about the Rockets. When my sons were in their early teens, they went to Calvin Murphy's camp three years running. It was a great experience. As annoying as Calvin can be on TV sometimes, he is so great with kids. The guy can still shoot lights out. I watched him move around the arc one morning and hit 15 straight treys, all from a different spot. I learned so much about shooting just listening to him. On the Rashard Lewis thing, I have acknowledged that I really like the kid and probably would give more for him than most. However, I should point out that in my original post I did not say we should give all those folks for him, but that I thought that is what Seattle would want. I'd love to have him because he is a known quantity and can shoot the three better than anyone we have. That would allow us to move several players and make roster space so we could stock up on centers. If Dream leaves and we don't get busy at the 5 spot, this team is in big trouble. Acquiring Lewis would mean we could gain a couple of roster spots and avoid carrying so many small forwards, none of whom really get the job done well. He makes the same money as Walt Williams and does so much more. I am sketical of Euros and college/high school players who have yet to prove they can play serious minutes 82 games in the very tough NBA. Many a prospect has fallen short. For that reason, I probably value proven players more than most here do. You know what you are getting, it's that simple. And since he has three years behind him and is not yet 21, he can only get better. Imagine him on the arc with Steve and Cuttino drawing defenders. Put Dream and Taylor in the post, and Lewis becomes the three point shooter who cannot be stopped. ------------------ [This message has been edited by PinetreeFM60 (edited June 16, 2001).] [This message has been edited by PinetreeFM60 (edited June 17, 2001).]
Wow, I'm gone for a little while & all he** breaks out. Glad to see you guys have kissed(hopefully, not literally : ) & made up. PinetreeFM60, Welcome to the board. I agree with you on the players that might have to be involved to get Rashard. However, I agree with some of the other posters, that giving all 3 picks would be way too much. While I would be very resistant to giving up Moochie, I agree with what you(or someone else) said, "you have to give up quality to get quality". I believe that Rashard would be a major improvement for the Rockets & would far out weigh the loss of Moochie. I believe "The Cat" posted, in another thread, that the Rockets offense was at it's best when Walt was hitting his shots. Rashard hit 48% of his FG's & 43% of his 3 pointers last year, while Walt only hit 39% & 40% respectively. As far as those that are hanging on to the thought of drafting 3 players, don't count on it. It's been well documented, that the Rockets are looking to bundle at least 2 of the picks to move up & if a deal like I'm about to propose(however unlikely it may be) were to be presented to Rudy & CD, I'd bet the bank that they would jump on it. Rashard has one thing that every draft pick this year does not have, 3 years of NBA experience & the numbers to prove that he's got what it takes. What surprises me, is that no one has even proposed including another team for a three way trade, which might make things a whole lot easier(or worse). Using RealGM, I worked up a 3 way with Houston, Chicago, & Seattle. This trade is making some assumptions of course. A1) That Chicago really would want Cato. A2) That Chicago would want Payton. A3) That Rashard really is available for trade. A4) That Shandon would agree to a sign & trade for $5-6 mill. A5) That Moochie would agree to a sign & trade for $2-3 mill. A6) That Drew would agree to a sign & trade for $2 mill. Houston sends Cato/Shandon/#18 pick/Drew obligation to Chicago. Houston sends Moochie/KT/#13 pick to Seattle. Chicago sends Miller/Drew(or Crawford)/Artest to Seattle. Chicago sends Fizer/#39 or #45 pick to Houston. Seattle sends Payton to Chicago. Seattle sends Rashard to Houston. I'm being a bit of a homer here, but that's my prerogative(SP?), so here's how it plays out. Chicago ends up with a starting lineup of Payton/Mercer/Brand/Cato/#4 pick(Battier or Brown) or Shandon/the #18 pick & they are free to trade future #1's. Seattle ends up with a starting lineup of Moochie/Mason/KT or Baker(if they can't trade him)/Miller/Artest + their #12 & our #13 picks to use or trade. Houston keeps #23, acquires a second round pick & ends up with a possible lineup of: C: Collier/#23(K.Johnson?)/Dream? PF: Fizer/Webber?/MO? SF: Rashard/Langhi/Walt? SG: Mobley/Colson PG: Francis/second round pick This might be an interesting player to pick up in the second round as a replacement for Moochie. http://nba.com/draft2001/playerfiles/ismaila_sy.html;$sessionid$34RWU Y3CPDUHDFMDAYSCFEQ?_requestid=267558 Since, both Houston & Chicago will be way under the cap, the trade would work. After the trade, the teams salary cap would look like this: Houston would be $18,947,783 under the proposed $43 mill cap. Chicago would be $8,484,339 under the cap. Seattle would be $13,005,214 under the cap. Chicago gives up the most cap space, but they get the best of this deal. Houston & Seattle could definitely sign their own FA's & go looking for more. Just a thought. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Hottoddie (edited June 16, 2001).]
Hottoddie: Where did you pick up on this Sy guy? Is there talk of him coming stateside? ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils.
