Miller is overrated, we should not and hopefully do not want him. Mobley is better for this team. I don't even want to see how you could say Miller would help this team.
Sam, I know Miller is not coming here. But we can still talk (what's a bbs for?) Juan and others are not arguing that Miller is better than Francis. No one in the right mind would say that. Some might argue that Miller is a better PG than Francis (though I don't think so). But nobody is saying Miller is a better player. He is supposed to replace Mobley, not Francis. I think Miller for Mobley is a fair trade in terms of overall talent. And I agree that Miller fits our needs better than Mobley as of now. I seldom do trade talk. But if you ask me about the Clippers, I'd say let's trade Francis and Mobley for Brand and Miller.
I know I'm not saying that you can't talk, I'm just saying that the "Let's get Andre Miller stuff" is discussed like it has a chance of happening; when in reality, geting Andre Miller is about as likely as getting Tracy McGrady or Kobe Bryant. Second, you would go into the season with a guard rotation of Miller, Hawkins and Moochie? ouch.
You couldn't trade Cat for Miller anyway. That would be playing into Sterling's hands, giving buddy Lamar Odom an excuse to re-sign for LAC, and maybe actually putting together a halfway decent team. And we don't need another halfway decent team in the West.
Great points JuanValdez, I wholeheartedly agree that Miller would be a wonderful role player for us. We don't need another superstar, we just need a guy like Miller to exercise his talents (passing, floor leadership, team-first mentality), since filling those needs would allow Steve to slide over to the 2 guard. It's not that Steve doesn't provide those skills, but I think Steve could average 27-29 points a night if his only major role for the team was to score. I also agree that it would be really tough to get Miller, but I believe it's definitely worth a try. As was said earlier, I too would like to see how Steve would perform if he didn't have to play the role of distributor. I do think that the previously mentioned argument concerning the defensive challenge that taller 2 guards would pose to Francis has some merit, but I think that overall, we would see a more productive Steve Francis if he were freed up from having to play the role of distributor. The PG that we get doesn't necessarily have to be Miller, I just think that Miller is most qualified for the type of PG we need to allow Steve to be successful at the 2 guard. Does anyone have a good feel for how many minutes per game this last year that Steve slid over and played the 2 guard? What were your overall impressions of his play during that time? I know that it's unlikely that anyone remembers this clearly enough to make a strong point, but I'd like to hear your thoughts anyway, even if they are only vague recollections.
Who said we'd stop there? If we have Brand, we'll have plenty of trade baits in Griffin and Taylor. The point is, if we have a front court of Brand-Yao and a passer like Miller, all we need is some shooters and defenders to fill the other spots.
I have skipped through a lot of this thread, so if this has already been said...uh...I second the thought: Miller is a very bad fit. If you get Miller, you might as well trade Steve. The thing about moving Steve to the 2 spot is that you'd need just the right 1, on offense and defense. Miller might be all right as a defensive complement to Steve, though I am unconvinced, but he would be a terrible sidekick on offense for one simple reason...what he does for an offense is all predicated on ball domination, and we can't afford that. Consider that yao is going to be the focus of the offense, and add miller dominating ball, and where would that leave Steve? A smaller spot up shooter/slasher? Totally takes away his biggest asset, what he does with the ball in his hands. I want to focus on Yao a lot of the time, but after that Steve needs to have the ball, or we are hamstringing one of our 2 stars. If you're gonna bring in a pg, and move Steve to the 2, it's gotta be a bigger pg who can defend 2s, and who doesn't dominate the ball.
MacBeth, it would seem to me that 'domination' of the ball by a PG would be predicated by what type of offense they are running and who they require to deliver the pass to their first scoring option. Can you describe what you mean by domination?
They'd also have faired better if they had Duncan instead of Olowokandi. Not sure what the point here is. Even so, I wonder if Marbury or Francis would much improve the bottom-line. On a team full of stat-padding FAs-to-be, I think even these guys would get into a funk. I'd have higher hopes for Kidd, but he couldn't do for them what he's done for New Jersey. Of course, it is all speculation. It's weird though. On the one hand, you're saying Miller's not that good. He's not on par with Kidd, Francis and Marbury. But, on the other hand, we have as much chance of getting him as we do of getting McGrady. Huh? If he's so bad, why is demand for him so high? Kubli9, the reason I don't like the he's-not-a-winner argument is that there isn't much evidence either side can bring to bear. Proponents can and do say he's never been on a winning team. While true, it is a specious argument. For one, it is a team sport so there is no way to say it is one guy's fault at not the other 11. Two, he's a young guy so he hasn't had much opportunity to win yet. Three, he was drafted high so he started his career with a bad team. Four, the only franchises he's played for are infamous for their heritage of sucking. There are a ton of guys who never had a winning season but don't get the label. Brand was never on a winning team. Bibby went years losing and then was traded to Sacramento. Does that mean he was a loser and then suddenly became a winner? No, he just played for a bad team and was traded to a good team. MacBeth, it's hard to discuss the effect of ball domination because it is a bit more ephemeral. I don't know what I can say other than I don't think it would be a problem. I can't imagine Francis sharing the ball with Miller would be much different from sharing with Mobley, except Miller passes more often and better than Mobley does. Would it make you feel better if Miller plays shooting guard and just happens to average more assists than our PG?
Then we get into realm of total team makeovers and replacing 75%-85% of the starting rotation in 2 months of one offseason for a team with no cap room to begin with; you might as well talk about fantasy basketball at that point, that stuff doesn't happen in the NBA.
Miller's strenght, his only real asset, is that he's steady with the ball, and makes good use of the clock and his teammates to set up plays. Other than that he's a poor shooter, can't really break his man down, is an erratic defender, not too athletic for a guard, and isn't a got-to guy in the cluthc. So, yeah, you could run an offense where you don't let Miller dominate the ball, but then you've got a bad shooting, non athletic decent at best defesive big guard not really adding anything to the team. Bottom line, if you have a backcourt of Miller and Francis, one of them is going to be wasting his best ability.
MacBeth's post is about as accurate an assesment of Miller I've seen in this thread. What is Miller going to do to make this team better? When Yao gets doubled is he going to knock down open shots? No. When the defense zones up on Yao is he going to break his man down? No. Andre Miller is a smart basketball player but his individual success has translated into nothing for his teams. He's overrated, will be overpaid, and the last thing the Rockets need.
I wouldn't do the Steve/Cat for Brand/Miller trade....yet. If Yao developed into the 18-20 ppg guy that we think he will then we could do that deal, but right now we need the offense. Brand & Miller wouldn't provide enough firepower with an undeveloped Ming. For all we know Yao will never be better than he is or develop further, so I'd rather hedge our bets a little on that one. By next season I may think differently.
MacBeth, I better understand what you mean now, and while I agree that a player like the one you described would not mesh well with Francis, I do not feel that Miller is as talentless as you do. If you assess him on the basis of this last year with LA, then I would side with you, but from what I saw during his last 2 years in Cleveland, I would give him a little higher rating in all those categories that you mentioned. Again, I'm not saying that he is a superstar, but I think that he is very steady in the categories mentioned and would thus be a good fit with Steve at the 2. Oh well, we can't agree on everything. Thanks for sharing your well-thought out ideas with me, MacBeth. You brought up some issues that I hadn't thought about before.
