1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Anti-police atmosphere leads to yet another shooting of police

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by bigtexxx, Sep 17, 2016.

  1. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    62,958
    Likes Received:
    25,492
    SMH, fair enough statistics are racist. Intelligent analysis of any kind is racist.

    Now let's get back to the real world where what I'm saying is merely common sense. I mean you can try to dismiss it by calling it "racist" but all you are doing is diluting what that word means by doing so. Since you want to dilute what the word means, don't complain when people stop paying attention to it after you made it meaningless.
     
  2. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    123,656
    Likes Received:
    32,526
    What? No?

    How will I ever go on?

    Oh, wait...I will just continue to speak the truth no matter how much it pains folks to read.

    DD
     
  3. Patience

    Patience Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    7,648
    Likes Received:
    9,217
    Shooting unarmed non-attacking black people to avoid any remote possibility they may resist is not "Intelligent Analysis". In this country, supposedly a 'free country', I believe police should be held to a higher standard than that. This is not a police state. Innocent civilians should be given the benefit of the doubt before they are gunned down, which right now only seems to happen in a lot of cases if you are white.

    I am not saying police go out with the intention to discriminate and overreact to black citizens, but that is what has been happening, so it is worthwhile to try to see if better or different training could prevent some of these tragedies. Saying that police killing more innocent black people is "rational" (in your words) is despicable and lazy. That is not an acceptable conclusion to this issue.
     
  4. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    62,958
    Likes Received:
    25,492
    First of all, that's not what is happening.

    Secondly, I already told you the ONLY thing that will change those numbers but it has been dismissed every time I mention it. As long as the violence numbers are what they are, the multiracial group that is "cops" will react the same way. Cut out the ridiculously disproportional violence rate in the black community and you'll change the threat assessment. Sure certain "training" might increase white guilt to where the numbers go down slightly among white cops, but it's not going to do anything for minority cops that don't feel that guilt....and they are already the most likely to pull the trigger on a black suspect.

    The narrative that the things are the way they are is due to racism is pretty laughable, but I guess it won't stop people from pushing it anyway. When given the choice between rational, logical explanation and an explanation based solely on emotion, some people just love them some emotional BS for whatever reason.
     
  5. RudyTBag

    RudyTBag Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    27,891
    Likes Received:
    20,665
    I'm not sure why either side is surprised. When you bone an entire race in the ******* the way that we did it is going to take hundreds of years to get everyone on a somewhat equal footing. When you have crappier schools, less space, less parenting as a result of overwork and guns and liquor stores on every corner, IT IS GOING DOWN. There should not be guilt, but there should be some significant empathy for the situation. That much is obvious.

    Poor people will be shot, cops will be shot. All day everyday. To blame the impoverished communities themselves is completely r****ded, to blame racism is equally r****ded.

    Plain and simple. The entire system is designed this way. With the wealth dispersion the way it is in America, the people on the bottom are going to get railed raw dog without any lube. I'm constantly surprised that folks are surprised.
     
  6. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    49,950
    Likes Received:
    40,445
    You have no statistical evidence behind what you say. That just "Stats can't be racist." well that's a ignorant position to take. Obviously if it turns out that only Jews are getting kicked out of their houses, then yes...stats can tell a story there. It doesn't take a genius to wonder what is happening may be due to race.

    What is even funny is that you say it IS because of race. Because of a stereotype. You said this...but then excuse it because for you it is an acceptable stereotype.

    Now to go to a typical Bobby tactic. That is to make something up with 0 facts and then claim it is fact.

    No facts, just an idea. "Maybe it is white guilt..." and then you turn it around into some fact....but with nothing at all backing you up. Then for good measure you go on about how logical and rational your thinking is. Problem is, the world isn't very rational or logical, that's why we have dumb stereotypes like this. Any ways...you are wrong.

    https://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white

    Honestly I'm baffled. You spent the past page or so saying how because black people kill cops at a higher rate that is why cops kill them at a higher rate and like you don't connect it to race at all. When I continue to focus on the 39% killed WHILE NOT ATTACKING you still say that is the reason...and you see nothing wrong with that. That an officer pulled the trigger faster because the color of someone's skin you think that has nothing to do with race.

    That's amazing. The naivete one must have there is amazing. You are committed to your delusion, I'll give you that.
     
  7. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    62,958
    Likes Received:
    25,492


    I'm not sure you are being intentionally dishonest or if you just don't know how to interpret numbers. Either way, it's a bit annoying. When 89% of all cops are White....which is a fact, and that 89% is ONLY responsible for 68% of the "people of color" (whatever the **** that means) then it stands to reason that the 11% of cops that are non-white are much more likely to shoot and kill "people of color" given that they are responsible for 32% of all "people of color" that are shot!

    You are all too happy to point out things like this when you want to talk about how black people are killed by police at a higher rate than white people despite white people being the majority of people killed by police, but somehow you'd have me believe that's the extent of your ability to understand what rate statistics say.

    Anyway, I've said my piece, I told you what can be done to stop the problem but if you prefer to scapegoat and blame all of life's problems on "racism" instead of the actual causes....be my guest. Just know that people like you are preventing progress.
     
  8. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    49,950
    Likes Received:
    40,445
    You really just don't get what you've read and why I posted that. I've asked you to back up your 'white guilt' claim. You didn't.

    Not surprised that the nuance went past you. Seeing as how earlier when you talked about the 39% stat you said "You talk as if they are all murders." without I guess seeing the big bold lettering on top of the graph that said "Killed". I guess I'm not suprised you didn't get this or perhaps didn't want to get this.


    Also what I find funny is how you can read into a stat and assume "White guilt" yet if someone presents a stat that shows blacks are more likely to get shot and that's because of racism you shoot it down immediately.

    Apparently Bobby is the only one that can make an assumption based on stats. Bobby is always right. He never has to back up his arguments with any facts. Just say something and then afterwards talk about how logical or rational it is.

    I know you think you are proving yourself right but really people stop responding to you seriously because it is really like talking to a brick wall. You ignore any stats you don't like, there is 0 middle ground, and then you continue on with the same narrative no matter what.


    Your idea is that it's okay that people are killed by stereotypes. That's perfectly how it should be and that is perfectly rational in your mind. You said "Change the culture" yet you never once went into specifics about what culture you are even talking about.

    Maybe because it is a general conservative talking point that the "Culture" is the problem and you just repeat it without understanding it. It is ironic because many black people are hardcore Christians like many southern whites so I always wonder what culture they are even talking about.

    Any ways, I've told you what the problem is and what can be done to stop the problem but if you prefer to ignore actual issues that actually exist....be my guest. Just know that people like you are preventing progress.
     
  9. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    62,958
    Likes Received:
    25,492
    I was suggesting it as a possible reason for why white officers would be less likely to pull the trigger on minority suspects than non white officers. Perhaps there's other explanations, but it seems logical.

    I was explaining to you that even though you are pointing out numbers of people shot while unarmed or not attacking, you aren't necessarily talking about wrongful shootings. The number of wrongful shootings is very low.


    Okay, what do you attribute it to then? Why are white officers less likely to shoot minority suspects than non white officers? Again, you think it's all racism, so I guess your explanation is that non white officers are more racist against minorities than white officers are. I think my explanation is more logical.

    Anyone can try but analysis isn't for everyone. When your suggestion isn't logical or is based on emotion, you probably failed.

    The problem is that you don't seem to understand what the stats are saying when you post them. That's not my fault.

    I never said that it was "okay" that people are killed by "stereotypes", though sadly that's what you heard.....when I tried to explain it to you better, you still failed to follow along so eventually I just went with it because I figured there was no hope you'd realize what I was actually talking about.

    When I say "change the culture" I'm talking about the culture that leads to the black community committing over half of the total murders in the US. I'm talking about changing the culture that leads to over 70% of black children being raised in single parent families which is a contributor to poverty in the black community which leads to crime.

    Until those things are changed, the image won't change and we'll still have black officers out shooting black people at ridiculously high rates.

    That is what you want to change right?

    No....it's because the only other option is to suggest that the criminality and violent tendencies are biological. I personally don't believe that. I think it is much more likely that cultural influences are what lead to the disproportionate number of murders committed by the black community.

    Now you can disagree if you like and suggest a biological explanation, but I don't think you'll get a lot of agreement.

    LOL, hilarious. So the problem is "racism" and the solution is scapegoating police officers. Gotcha.

    All those racist black cops out there hunting down innocent black men. Awesome narrative.
     
  10. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    49,950
    Likes Received:
    40,445
    Sure, it could be but the amount you leaned on bringing it up makes it seem like you think it is much more than a suggestion.


    Eh, if you aren't attacking an officer and you are shot then I don't see how that isn't wrongful. Need I remind you of the 6th amendment? Also these reports are thanks to the FBI so I tend to trust them when they say these people were killed while not attacking.


    I explained it to you, stereotypes extend to all races. Black people can think that black people are more dangerous. This isn't even a question man. I can give you plenty examples of people believing stereotypes against their own race. Whether they are trivial are of the heavy nature like this. There is actual science to this. The idea is be beyond stereotypes as MLK tried to preach.

    When you tell me that black officers kill black suspects my response is the same, it is because of a racist stereotype that has been perpetuated for centuries now. One that is still going on today.

    While not attacking black people are still killed at a higher rate. Come to your own conclusion about why that is. You say it is demonizing cops or scapegoating but those are just the facts whether you like it or not.


    Says the guy that doesn't understand the 39% fact and I constantly had to tell you that the 39% were NOT ATTACKING even though the first few times you kept talking about how if you attack a cop blah blah blah.


    LOL see, look at this right here. Now you are only blaming black officers. Amazing. You are creating a new narrative. "It is the black officers that are the problem." wow.

    As for your culture argument you still have not identified the culture. Apparently all black people are part of the same culture. News to me. I want to identify this culture so that we can discuss it but it's always this vague culture that's always the problem.

    The fact that you think it is either/or speaks more about you than anything.

    Here is another option. Socioeconomic factors that have been consistent throughout history. When you combine that with the other stats I linked and the essay I posted summarizing those facts then well maybe you'll see something more explainable than "Culture" or some inherited inferiority.



    http://www.jbwtucker.com/ultimate-white-privilege-statistics/

    That article is chocked full of stats like this by the way and you've done an amazing job dodging them and it each time.

    Lol, hilarious. So the problem is "culture" and the solution is scapegoating black people. Gotcha.
     
  11. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    62,958
    Likes Received:
    25,492
    It's the most rational explanation I've heard. By all means, if you have another explanation please share it with the class.

    EXACTLY my point, you don't understand. We know they weren't deemed wrongful shootings based on the numbers, but in your mind, they have to be. That's part of the problem, you fundamentally misunderstand what the numbers are truly telling you.

    When you say "stereotype" you are implying that it is somehow unfair yet in this instance, we are talking about a well earned reputation that is backed up by the facts. Certain areas ARE more dangerous, certain demographics ARE more likely to kill people. It's not a "stereotype" it's just how things actually are....and that's why I'm suggesting that if you want real change, you have to do something about the violence and criminality. You don't want certain areas or certain demographics to have a reputation for violence? Do something to stop it from being a deserved reputation and the rest will take care of itself.



    Match those statistics up against the statistics of cops being murdered and you'll find they match pretty well. Those are just the facts and there is a causal link between the two. Deny it if you like, but it really is just blatantly obvious.


    You seem to think that is relevant, but

    1. Most of those were still justifiable use of force under the law (look up the numbers)

    2. I already told you that certain demographics are offered less benefit of the doubt due to crime statistics.

    I mean, I've already explained it to you but you keep touting it as if it supports your narrative. It doesn't.

    Black officers shoot and kill black suspects at a disproportionately high rate, a rate MUCH higher than that of white officers. Also they shoot unarmed non attacking black suspects at a much higher rate....you are the one suggesting that this is the problem.

    Of course rate statistics only matter when they further your narrative right?

    Fair enough, so you're suggesting that the reason for the high rate of murder and other violence in the black community is biological rather than cultural. Interesting, but I still disagree. I think it is best explained by culture. In fact, I think your assertion that it is not cultural is a bit racist.
     
  12. T_Man

    T_Man Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Messages:
    6,529
    Likes Received:
    2,419
    Thanks for warning me about Trump and the kkk and also the alt-right...

    T_Man
     
  13. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    49,950
    Likes Received:
    40,445
    I did. You ignored it.


    Lol, realize that these numbers are reported by the officers themselves right? You are basically allowing the police to police themselves. Yeah, sounds like a sound idea.


    So more excuses as to why we should just accept the stereotype that black people are violent.

    So much for judging people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin. Your argument is DIRECTLY contradictory to MLK and what he asked of the American public.

    You are missing the part where they don't match up with other demographics but okay.


    1. This is a problem with the system, Police should not be policing themselves.

    2. That is racism. That because of the race you are you are offered less benefit of the doubt is racism. It just is.

    No what was funny is how you went on and on about black officers being the problem, you mentioned it several times in your post. I never specified officers by race, you did. Not me. You were the only one thinking about race in this instance and found a way to blame black people once again. I merely said officers in all and that has always been my argument.


    Amazing. I will bold this because you've ignored it like 10x now at least.



    I will continue to reply to you with the above until you finally address it. It's funny how you broke down my entire post but left that out.


    I mean let's break this down...

    Amazing. You ignored a large part of my post to the point that you IMAGINED I said something else entirely...

    Where did I say or suggest that Bobby?

    Now where in the hell do I suggest it is biological? Either you can't read and have comprehension issues or you think people are dumb enough to fall for this crap.
     
  14. T_Man

    T_Man Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Messages:
    6,529
    Likes Received:
    2,419
    DD, unfortunately some people don't want to hear that and they don't want to talk about it.. If it's not happening to them, then it never happened.. just a myth..

    It's not right what these guys did and unfortunate for the victims, but that can also go both ways with bad cops.

    T_Man
     
  15. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    49,950
    Likes Received:
    40,445
    What's sad is some know it is happening...but make excuses for it happening.

    According to this because of crime statistics black people should just get less benefit of the doubt.

    [​IMG]

    Well too bad, according to Bobby they will be judged by the color of their skin and that's just how things are. Accept it.
     
  16. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    10,344
    Likes Received:
    1,203
    I'm sure Martin Luther King Jr. would jump at the chance to defend this guy's actions.

    Not.
     
  17. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    49,950
    Likes Received:
    40,445
    Would he agree that it's alright to be stereotyped because of your skin color? I dunno, listening to him I think it's safe to say he would be passionately against this type of thing.
     
  18. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    62,958
    Likes Received:
    25,492
    LOL well I tried. It seems that the persecution complex and the desire to scapegoat others for all of life's problems is simply too strong to be overcome....and that's why things won't be changing any time soon.
     
  19. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    49,950
    Likes Received:
    40,445
    Final stage of Bobbyism. Leave one last snarky comment after ignoring facts thrown at him.



    I will continue to reply to you with the above until you finally address it. It's funny how you broke down my entire post but left that out.
     
  20. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    62,958
    Likes Received:
    25,492
    It's just me throwing my hands up after you continue to fail to understand the most basic things. At a certain point, it's just me talking with a wall. No matter what I say, you'll ignore the rational and logical in favor of the emotional and the scapegoat. I'm not sure what happened in your life that caused you to be that way, but it is what it is. All i can hope is that one day you'll see the light and give up on the persecution complex.

    Till then, nothing can help.
     

Share This Page