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Anti-Centers bias in the league?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by tigermission1, Feb 20, 2006.

  1. New Jack

    New Jack Member

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    Shaq’s size and quickness would probably allow him to still be great no matter what the rules. But in the case of Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, and Mourning, I definitely think their games would have developed differently had they played with these rules. A lot less low post play and a lot more facing up to the basket and jumpshooting. Basically, the center’s game would more closely resemble what the power forwards game used to be.

    Had players like Dwight Howard or Amare Stoudamire been apart of the NBA in the early 90’s, the first thing their teams would have done was develop their low post game. But nowadays, developing a low post game is not nearly the priority that it once was. Back then, there was absolutely no way you could survive as a big man without a back-to-the-basket game. Now, you can have absolutely no post up game whatsoever and still be a superstar.
     
  2. Kyrodis

    Kyrodis Member

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    I actually posted this in another thread a while back. In my opinion, it's a combination of new rules and a sharp decline in post play that has led to a center-less league these days.

    A sound low-post game is much harder to develop than anything else. Many of the greatest low-post centers came into the league quite raw and slowly developed their abilities over time. Hakeem and Shaq didn't do anything but slam the ball home when they first came into the league. It wasn't until later that we began seeing the Hakeem's "Dream Shake" or Shaq's drop step down the baseline and baby hook.

    In the same fashion the young big men today prefer to get highlight-reel dunks. However, they're growing up in an era where coaches are running plays to get them much easier shots (a la running the pick & roll to death). They no longer really need to "work" to get an open shot. Instead, they've become complacent with their underdeveloped bask-to-the basket game and end up working their shooting range out to 3-pt land in order to showcase their "versatility." They view the post-up game as an outdated/unnecessary way to get an open shot.

    That said, the new rules certainly haven't helped the traditional low-post center. While fundamentally sound moves on the low block can allow a center to seemingly score at will, all of it still requires a good entry pass. With centers getting sandwiched between two players nowadays, a low-post big man can't even get the ball to do anything with it.

    You get a snowball effect: Big men don't really bother with an effective low-post game anymore, and the rule changes compel them to focus on other areas of their game. Moreover, these rules force the few existing traditional centers to move away from their back-to-the-basket game and do other things...the way Duncan and Shaq do now.

    In the same way the sweeping and sky hooks died out over the years, I think post moves are slowly making their exit as well.
     
  3. GATER

    GATER Member

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    Avery Johnson had enough time to install 1 or 2 easy sets with Yao in the high post. With a team full of All Star caliber players who could easily and quickly cut to the basket from the weakside (on opponents playing AS calber defense)...AJ didn't. As close as it got was a McGrady weakside cut from Yao in the mid-block.

    So the coach with the WC's best record does the same thing as VG. They are both stupid if I am to believe the predominant thought on this board. Wonder why the VG haters overlook the fact that Rudy T used Yao exclusively in the low blocks, too. :confused:

    The Rockets are not a good offensive rebounding team. 9 of the NBA's top 10 rebounders are back to the basket low post players. Yao only grabs 0.2 more ORebs/g than Juwan Howard. But we want to move him to the FT line? :confused:

    I have mentioned it more times than I can count...the purpose of Yao in the high post is to run cuts past him or quick cutters from the weakside. With the exception of McGrady and possibly Luther Head (who struggles to finish strong normally), we don't have those kinds of players. Look at how we struggle to get anyone other than TM or LH to the basket off a Yao high PnR. There is little difference between the two situations other than at least Yao is rolling to the basket for an OReb in the PnR.

    The Kings with Chris Webber were successful in high post offense because virtually everyone on the team...Bibby, Jackson, Christie, a younger Jon Barry, even Peja and Vlade...could all make quick cuts, had good hands and were good interior passers to get it back to Webber (who is probably still quicker than Yao). We don't have those kinds of players.

    If Swift had Hayes' court vision and hands & Wesley were 5 inches taller and 10 years younger, High Post would be great. But we don't have players complimentary to HP offense.
     
  4. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Who is the IDEAL big man in the NEW NBA

    Dirk Nowitzski - Jump shooting 7 ftr

    Rocket River
     
  5. JumpMan

    JumpMan Member
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    New Jack and Kryodis, it seems that it's just a problem with the development of big men, if they don't have low post skills how do we know if they can use them if they had them?

    Yao has them and he uses them, same with Duncan and Shaq, Howard has the makings of a great post player, Amare a Kemp like PF he didn't have a great post up game either, Bosh could be another KG, neither of them like the low post. Brand has a fine low post game, but like Malone he developed his game and is a threat anywhere he gets the ball, the Grizzlies run Gasol in the low post and even use him like a PG down there. There's JO, and I don't know why he complains, he gets the ball more than any post player in the league, can't blame the rules on his inefficiency, I just don't see what the big deal is I guess.

    EDIT: It seems like people are blaming rules on the fact that we don't have any post players averaging Hakeem, David, and prime Shaq numbers, could that be because there are no big men as good as those guys?
     
    #25 JumpMan, Feb 20, 2006
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2006
  6. xcomputerman

    xcomputerman Contributing Member

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    Yao could easily be averaging 25-27 points per game this season. He is so much bigger, so much stronger and more athletic than he was when he came into the NBA (if you watched the 2003 ASG on ESPN Classic last night you'd be amazed at how small he looked back then). He is still the best center in the game, but the new rules have severely limited him from becoming as dominant as he could be.
     
  7. JumpMan

    JumpMan Member
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    So, you think he's as good as Hakeem?
     
  8. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    How has the zone rule removed 60% of the game strategy and changed it to a sprint? :confused:
     
  9. m_cable

    m_cable Member

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    How do you get that from his post. He's saying that Yao could have been an incredible scorer with a different set of rules, which I agree with. Comparisons between Yao and Hakeem have no bearing on the conversation. You're just using it as an excuse to devalue his opinion.
     
  10. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    He would be a lot closer to Hakeem if the rules were the same.

    DD
     
  11. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    The gap between Yao and all opposing centers not named Shaq is much wider than the gap between Hakeem and his competitors. Hakeem was better than Yao, but he was also playing in an era with a lot of good centers, like Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Sabonis, etc. Yao vs. chumps like Kurt Thomas and Lorenzen Wright should be able to put up Hakeem like numbers. The problem is, it was never that much of a chore to feed the post in the old days. Now you almost need a highlight reel pass just to get the guy the ball on the low block. Remember when Barkley would back it in for 15 seconds? Now, Yao would be lucky to get 1 dribble because there is a guard sitting in his lap before he receives the pass.
     
  12. JoeBarelyCares

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    That's the one glimmer of hope for improvement for the rules to help Yao. If the league outlaws the arm bar and the knee wedge, Yao could get position much closer to the hoop, and could become a truly "dominant" force. If JVG keeps whining that Yao is not reffed properly, maybe they will look at this.

    Otherwise, if there is not a rule change, if Yao starts playing the high post, at least he will only have to run 3/4s of the court, and may stay fresher or be able to play more minutes.
     

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