What is this fascination with turnovers here lately? JVG is not a basketball god, he is not a basketball genius. John Wooden according to Bill Walton once told him that "If you want to know who the best players generally are, you can usually look at the top 20 or so in turnovers, because usually speaking the more you turn it over, the better the player you are, because you are doing more on the court than the guy next to you who doesn't turn it over as much." John Wooden was a basketball genuis, JVG is not. BTW, top 20 in turnovers per game, NONE of them should ever see the court, the coaches should befired for ever playing them, and the fans should emand these scrubs NEVER get an run. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbaturnovers&sort=tos&league=nba&avg=pg RNK NAME GP MPG TO TOPG TOP48 AST/TO STL/TO 1 Allen Iverson, DEN/PHI 34 43.0 148 4.4 4.9 1.73 0.48 2 Dwyane Wade, MIA 40 39.1 165 4.1 5.1 1.90 0.52 3 Carmelo Anthony, DEN 30 38.1 115 3.8 4.8 1.02 0.33 4 Yao Ming, HOU 27 34.7 103 3.8 5.3 0.54 0.10 5 Paul Pierce, BOS 24 38.4 91 3.8 4.7 1.13 0.24 6 Steve Nash, PHO 45 35.8 168 3.7 5.0 3.18 0.20 7 Dwight Howard, ORL 48 35.5 171 3.6 4.8 0.46 0.20 8 Kobe Bryant, LAL 44 39.5 154 3.5 4.3 1.58 0.36 9 Lamar Odom, LAL 27 39.0 94 3.5 4.3 1.38 0.27 10 LeBron James, CLE 45 41.0 156 3.5 10 LeBron James, CLE 45 41.0 156 3.5 4.1 1.74 0.47 11 Eddy Curry, NYK 48 34.4 164 3.4 4.8 0.21 0.12 12 Gilbert Arenas, WAS 46 40.7 157 3.4 4.0 1.85 0.56 13 Monta Ellis, GSW 43 34.0 142 3.3 4.7 1.23 0.42 14 Andre Iguodala, PHI 48 39.7 153 3.2 3.9 1.65 0.66 15 T.J. Ford, TOR 40 30.9 125 3.1 4.9 2.45 0.38 16 Tracy McGrady, HOU 38 35.8 118 3.1 4.2 2.02 0.37 17 Ben Gordon, CHI 48 31.8 149 3.1 4.7 1.17 0.26 18 Joe Johnson, ATL 41 40.5 127 3.1 3.7 1.31 0.36 19 Mo Williams, MIL 38 35.9 116 3.1 4.1 2.01 0.40 20 Tim Duncan, SAS and this, players averging roughky 4 turnovers per 48 minutes, NONE of them ever has any busines setting foot on the court, what the hell are their coaches thinking or the fans for that matter? http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/stati...=2007&seasontype=2&avg=48&order=false&pos=all 144 Vladimir Radmanovic, LAL 46 18.4 61 1.3 3.5 0.87 0.36 145 Damon Stoudamire, MEM 43 23.6 73 1.7 3.5 2.68 0.42 146 Ruben Patterson, MIL 47 31.1 106 2.3 3.5 1.32 0.48 147 Andres Nocioni, CHI 47 27.9 95 2.0 3.5 0.57 0.27 148 Zydrunas Ilgauskas, CLE 47 27.1 93 2.0 3.5 0.69 0.30 149 Jamal Crawford, NYK 49 37.3 134 2.7 3.5 1.65 0.37 150 Chris Bosh, TOR 35 37.3 96 2.7 3.5 0.83 0.16 151 Devin Harris, DAL 47 26.6 92 2.0 3.5 1.93 0.59 152 Carlos Boozer, UTH 45 36.3 121 2.7 3.6 1.13 0.34 153 Jason Kidd, NJN 47 36.9 129 2.7 3.6 3.19 0.61 154 Antoine Walker, MIA 43 23.8 76 1.8 3.6 0.87 0.37 155 Al Harrington, GSW/IND 44 33.9 112 2.5 3.6 0.61 0.34 156 Hakim Warrick, MEM 48 25.5 92 1.9 3.6 0.53 0.25 157 Deron Williams, UTH 48 37.3 135 2.8 3.6 3.21 0.41 158 Jameer Nelson, ORL 44 29.6 99 2.3 3.6 1.85 0.46 159 Joe Johnson, ATL 41 40.5 127 3.1 3.7 1.31 0.36 160 Andre Miller, DEN/PHI 46 36.6 129 2.8 3.7 3.00 0.50 161 Jamaal Magloire, POR 49 18.6 70 1.4 3.7 0.23 0.16 162 Raymond Felton, CHA 44 37.8 129 2.9 3.7 2.53 0.50 163 Tony Parker, SAS 47 33.5 123 2.6 3.7 2.11 0.38 164 Chris Kaman, LAC 41 28.7 92 2.2 3.8 0.40 0.25 165 Amare Stoudemire, PHO 47 31.1 115 2.4 3.8 0.23 0.29 166 Jermaine O'Neal, IND 42 36.3 120 2.9 3.8 0.95 0.25 167 Manu Ginobili, SAS 43 28.2 96 2.2 3.8 1.47 0.76 168 Carlos Arroyo, ORL 44 19.5 69 1.6 3.9 1.99 0.36 169 Andre Iguodala, PHI 48 39.7 153 3.2 3.9 1.65 0.66 170 Alonzo Mourning, MIA 46 23.5 87 1.9 3.9 0.11 0.10 171 Luke Ridnour, SEA 47 31.4 119 2.5 3.9 2.13 0.47 172 Baron Davis, GSW 43 37.5 130 3.0 3.9 2.86 0.68 173 Darko Milicic, ORL 48 22.4 87 1.8 3.9 0.59 0.31 174 Josh Smith, ATL 37 35.6 107 2.9 3.9 1.06 0.53 175 Desmond Mason, NOR 47 35.4 138 2.9 4.0 0.57 0.24 176 Zaza Pachulia, ATL 42 28.4 99 2.4 4.0 0.69 0.45 177 Gilbert Arenas, WAS 46 40.7 157 3.4 4.0 1.85 0.56 178 LeBron James, CLE 45 41.0 156 3.5 4.1 1.74 0.47 179 Zach Randolph, POR 48 35.5 145 3.0 4.1 0.61 0.26 180 Mo Williams, MIL 38 35.9 116 3.1 4.1 2.01 0.40 181 Randy Foye, MIN
Umm, that proves nothing. Yeah, are you going to tell me V-Span is good enough as Kobe, AI, ect.? V-Span is not good enough to where his TOs don't matter. Most of the players on the Top 20 TO list make up their TOs for all the scoring they do. They can hit their shots. Heck, he isn't better now than any of the players listed 144-181.
It does show you that a player can still be successful in helping his team even though he averages a good number of turnovers per game. DD
yes, if they are a hall of famer or all star caliber player who handles the ball a lot. OUr team already has TWO of those guys however. We don't need another McGrady. Not if you are a mediocre rookie who can't shoot, pass, or defend - who thinks they're an all-star andn above the team. (Sorry DaDakota - to me, to be a good passer, your passes have to actually reach the other guy, not fly out of bounds) MY money says if spanoulis was black and american you'd call him an out of control streetballer and be done with him.
It shows me that you, like JVG may not know as much about the game or what the team needs as you think.
True, I'm sure there's a number of fabricated anectdotes that only you are privy to. All of us 'armchair doctors" who were wrong about Sura's comeback really learned our lesson on that one.
Like I said, then there are MANY coaches who need to be fired right now because those guys are playing and none should be. About 20 players around 4 per 48 minutes in to's who are definitely NOT superstars or hall of famers, but you wouldn't know that would you? Yeah, another person bringing up race. Wow, such brilliant discussion.
You would lose a lot of money then. I like Span because he can pass and create......I thought Rafer was going to do some of that when we got him....and he has not done much of it to my dissappointment. I like creative players....ala Nash and Kidd. DD
No one has ever doubted that. And Van Gundy has noted plenty of times that we committed a lot more turnovers when Yao was healthy, but it's the nature of the beast. The common thread with those players is they are the playmakers, go to players, and the ones that win are quite good ones. On a team fortunate enough to have 2 of those, a third high turnover guy better be either Steve Nash type playmaker, or a ridiculous scorer. You can use all the Yao quotes you want, but Spanoulis isn't Nash in terms of playmaking, nor is it even sure he could keep his turnovers at Nash's levels. Notice - Jason Terry is not on that list. When you're not the true lead guard (and as long as Mac is around, he is), you have to be effectivewithout committing a ton of turnovers.
Yeah, I get that...and I concede that V-Span is not close to being the starting PG on this team, I have only wanted him to get some minutes at backup PG. I was a bit dissappointed that he did not get in the game last night due to extenuating circumstances, but I was not surprised. DD
Well I like Jessica Alba and Jessica Biel but I'm not holding my breath waiting for them to walk into my door. VMac in the same discussion with Nash and Kidd, yeah that's rich.
How do you explain Parker, Manu, and Amare all averging 4 to's per 48 minutes, playing along top to guys Duncan and Nash? How do those teams EVER win with all those turnovers? More importantly how did Euro Parker and SA Euro playing Manu EVER get to set foot on court with Spurs? How the hell do Suns EVER win with their two best players coughing up so many to's and then other guys like Diaw coughing it up left and right all over the place? And funny one team is slow it down defense one is run and gun offense, so seems all kinds of bball including half court and full court is supported there. Seems statistics don't agree with JVG and Span bashers that because in Europe or preseason or few games he got good minutes in regular season he looks to be about 4 to's per 48 minutes that he could never ever see floor time, could never play should not be in NBA and the team could never win with him.
LMFAO. You seriously going to sit there and think you have more knowledge about the game than JVG? Thats freakin' hilarious. I guess you are V-Span's personal coach also since you think he is already that good. Please, explain why JVG is a respected and proven coach in the NBA and you are sitting on your butt defending V-Span. The next person that makes a comment where they think they know more about the game of basketball than JVG, you better be on a coaching staff in the NBA.
Can you not read between the lines ever? I simply am saying JVG is NOT as good or knowing as he thinks he is. I do not claim to know more aboutthe game than him, never did I say that, however I know for a fact my IQ is tremendously higher than his and because of this I can actually extrapolate beyond simplist black and white demagogue like thinking, which is what JVG prides himself on. He admitted that he is terribly confused and feels stupid when talking to Morey about his in depth stats and that Morey is a "genuis" and "obviously much smarter than him." MI think it was Alexander that claimed Morey's IW was 160. 145 is genuis, 160 is certainly VERY intelligent, but my IQ is 203, so I find it hard to convince myself that when I see more talent or sense in how to certain things than Van Gundy that I am so terribly wrong, and Van Gundy is so terribly right.
LMFAO, please tell me you were not typing that with a straight face, that has got to be one of the most hilarious posts I've ever read, especially the IQ part, LOL. Thanks for the entertainment, that is a classic....in fact it could be worthy of BBS classic posts...LOL PS. I would call you a tool but I'm not suppose to stoop down to that level
It's useless comparing guards to big men with regard to turnovers. Different natures. Manu's minutes have always been kept under 30 minutes a game, partly for this very reason. You won't find many "star" guards who have never broken through 30 minutes a game. Pop has started bringing him off the bench probably in part due to make use of his playmaking off the bench - he just can't do that as much in the lineup with both Duncan and Parker in there As for Parker, he's had a 2+ AST/TO ratio every year of his career except last year, despite only one year of more than 6 assists. Find point guards who have anywhere near the 1/1 AST/TO ratio Spanoulis is putting out who actually got minutes. You stomach turnovers from your stars. The Rockets happen to have the arguably most potent 1/2 punch, and those are their stars. The Suns run their offense around Nash primarily, but also Diaw playmaking in the high post. As for your premise, the Suns and Spurs are in the top 10 in terms of fewest turnovers. The Rockets are doing ok at 13th, but this is with Yao out most of the season, and also worth noting we have fewer possessions than the Suns (and I'd guess the Spurs as well). It's really not that complicated. Turnovers from your stars can be stomached; turnovers from the supporting cast are not as ok. When Spanoulis shows something that he can be on Manu's planet, then maybe it can be an idea to consider. But the guy is shooting right around 30% from the field, and sub 20% from the arc -- you don't accept a high turnover rate and lots of fouls on top of that. Edit: This thread just turned classic.
Even though I'd need to see the actual quote of what Yao said, I think I could forgive/allow/understand an established NBA player extolling virtuous comments on a fellow teammate to boost his ego and challenge him to get to the next level, create buzz among fans and media. Like TMac declaring Yao as the best center earlier this year (which was already true anyways) even though TMac and Shaq are good friends. However, I cannot take it with a straight face when regular joe fanzines start discussions about VMac and drop Nash and Kidd's name in there. It kinda sorta creates this kind of reaction:
