what is considered cruel and unusual has evolved over time. from the romans having gladiators fight to the death, to public hangings in this country. there is no absolute good and evil. but the point of this thread wasn't to argue weather what he did was wrong, he went to jail for something illegal, there's no debate about. my issue is as it was when he was first caught is the villifying behind an issue no one talked about before this. everyone has chosen to hop on their high horse and whenever talking about vick referring to themselves as an "animal lover" that was what was particular sickening about lurie's part in the presser. dude was acting like God talking about how he was judging vick's character before making his decision.
Why are they dumb ("don't seem very smart")? The beagles chase out rabbits far better than a human ever could and if you've been rabbit hunting with them and then without them this is totally noticeable. The lab can go swim and fetch a duck much more better than a human could and I'm not sure of other alternatives other than buying a boat and paying for licenses, fuel, upkeep, etc. The goats cost a total of $80 for 4 of them and they are much cheaper than hiring a lawn service or landscaper and the people that own them even make a little money off selling baby goats. Sure you could buy a mower but you have to pay for the fuel and upkeep of it. Maybe there is a better way to do it with the cats but some people obviously don't think so but the other options seem fairly reasonable to me. I agreed with that but some people still use them for functional purposes. In many instances, it makes sense to me and to many other people.
I know for me. . . . People seem to be putting more and more premium on Animal life while putting less and less on Human Life [I am not saying that one has met the other but they coming closer together] I watch as people starving on one commercial then the next is talking about Doggies Spas, Pools, specialized stuff How many resources goes to pets . . . .. It would be interesting to see how much money is spent on Pets in this country We have pet over population but we still continue to coddle and even extend their lives like there were human. They even have pet insurance. Amazing some pets have insurance while a bunch of people don't I don't condone animal abuse but I consider it lower than child abuse. . .wife abuse . .. human abuse human cruelty to humans He abused and killed some dogs and people think that over a year in prison and losing over 100 million dollars is still not enough ????? Sorry . . I cannot get with that ideal Rocket River
I'll admit, I didn't like his ideas in the press conference, especially about needing to see self-hatred.
So he owns five beagles that he feeds, keeps in a pen, presumably keeps healthy, cleans their poop, makes sure they don't get any diseases, etc. (dogs, even kept in a pen, are a lot of work...especially if you have 5 of them) solely for a few weeks of improved enjoyment. Well...to me, that is dumb. Especially since I know hunters who don't keep their own pets but still do hunt with dogs with friends, family dogs, etc. (which seems much smarter). I don't even consider the goats "pet ownership". Just like I don't consider domesticated cows "pet ownership" when used for milking and eventual slaughter. I don't think I'm alone in making a distinction between having a pet and having an animal. Merriam Webster defines pet as: a domesticated animal kept for pleasure rather than utility. Wiki notes: A pet is an animal kept for companionship and enjoyment or a household animal, as opposed to livestock, laboratory animals, working animals or sport animals, which are kept for economic reasons. Even with all that, I have not discounted that there are definitely dogs that are used for very functional purposes. But I still continue to argue - unscientifically, granted - that in most cases those dogs are as endeared for their companionship as for the function provided.
Yes, he does for the rabbit season between September-February. I hunt with him so I am one of those people you speak of who do not own dogs but go with those that do. May be dumb to you but it's not for him or to me or the others that hunt with him. Oh well..... These people do consider their goats as pets. They say they have pet goats. They throw them out "treats" every now and then and pay them some attention when gathering wood. Definitions change all the time and are different for different people. These people have pet goats. I agree with that just saying that your initial assumption of not appreciating a pet's true purpose may be wrong in some people's eyes.
Granted you haven't pointed at me or anyone in particular, I'd thought I'd note that I find it particularly disappointing that there seems to be an underlying belief, or tone, that animal lovers are animal lovers at the expense of human life. Which generally, and certainly for me, isn't the case. One can, and I do, love and put a high premium on both animal life and human life. America spends over $150 billion a year on health care costs associated with obesity. If we're going to start talking about resources, and feeling bad about human starvation, then shouldn't we be getting way more serious and passionate about certain groups of people tendencies to overeat...at the expense of others! I guess I just don't see the point in complaining about people putting "too much of a premium" on animal life, when there are so many things humans are doing to themselves and each other that have way way way way way bigger impacts to human life than how they are treating their pets. I find all abuse disturbing. I think what you'll find with many who are disgusted by Vick isn't that they think animal abuse is worse than human abuse, but that they think that all abuse is bad, and the type of abuse is should be considered more. What Vick did goes beyond abuse, really. He drowned, electrocuted and hung dogs. Smashing dogs into the pavement until they died. Tying weaker dogs up and letting other dogs kill them and other "bait" experiments. He had rape stands and forced females to be raped. Etc, etc. Obviously, if these types of things would be done to humans, then the offender should be put away for life (or the death penalty, if that floats your boat). But let's not discount what Vick actually did do. And has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, on top of that, he consistently pleaded innocent, tried to pretend like he didn't do it and only turned when it was so clear and obvious what he did. And then, on top of all of that, he broke other laws involving money transfer, etc. I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist. But I am disgusted, disturbed and frightened by Vick's actions. I wouldn't treat my worst worst worst enemies like Vick treated those dogs. I personally hope he is truly reformed and better, though would guess his mental stability is 50/50 at best. My personal view is that to have the capability to do what he did to anything isn't about upbringing or getting put into the wrong situation or anything like that. At some point your an adult, you learn right and wrong, you learn sadistic and not sadistic (so to speak), and that level of sadism is scary crazy, to me. absolutely.
I'm fine with your responses. I don't think we're that far off, and I highly doubt you're friend is abusing his beagles in any way. I'd prefer he put some effort into bonding with those beagles (and am hopefully and guessing that he probably does that as well), but am also glad that they've been given the moderately full life that they have. I'm guessing there's a reason you don't keep the five beagles and let your friend do it, though (because its a lot of work and effort and easier to just use your pals, right?!). I'd agree with definitions changing. For the most part though, the current definition of a pet is pretty well thought out and representative of generally, what pets are in this world. I personally don't consider cows at slaughter houses pets, whether fed treats or not. But to each their own.
If you commit 10 aggravated robberies, the penalty will be higher than if you commit 1 negligent homicide.In fact, 1 aggravated robbery will get you more time than 1 negligent homicide even though nobody dies in the robbery. If you kill 10 people, the penalty will be more severe than if you kill 1 person. If you accidentally kill a human, the penalty will be less than if you hunt down, torture, and kill a human for fun. Comparing what Vick did to one single accidental murder isn't an equal comparison. Intent, and willful volition and malice aforethought all factor into the severity of the crime. Vick had all three in spades. If Vick got drunk and ran over a dog, he would have a DWI (misdemeanor) on his record, vs. DWI and intoxication homicide (felony) for getting drunk and running over a person vs. capital murder for getting drunk and hunting down police officers to run over. If he set up a gladiator mill for enslaved human beings and started murdering the underperformers, he'd be reviled on the scale of hatred somewhere between Josef Fritzl and Adolph Hitler. For an equal comparison, you'd need an equal crime. Comparing equally, the fact that he is still alive is proof that the punishment was less severe than if you substituted humans for dogs. His lighter sentence is that he is only going to be permanently reviled as a scumbag, but he gets to stay alive and go free. The mantra here is killing dogs is less than killing humans. But the people arguing it seem to be really thinking that killing dogs is equal to throwing away an old sofa.
I've whacked hundreds of roaches in my life. I've destroyed entire colonies of ants by spraying them with ant spray. I eat meat just about everyday. And yes, just to clarify, I have every intention of causing these animals deaths. And I never tried to kill them "humanely". How many of these animals' lives equal the life... scratch that, even one the well being, of one human being? Would you say my sins are worse than if tried to con a person of his/her lifesavings? On one side, you have literally thousands of animals killed. Maliciously, I might add. On the other side, all I did was take some money from another person. Why should the punishment for the latter be more severe?
Roaches and ants don't have complex nervous systems or any higher cognition, and they don't feel pain. An ant is to a dog, as a shrubbery is to an ant. If you hunt them down and do it for fun - if you enjoy dismemering living ants one appendage at a time, I will say you probably have some mental health issues that you should address. What Vick did was significantly worse than a simple property crime.
does throwing an old sofa automatically gets someone to jail for a year? most of the people supporting Vick now are just saying 1 year in jail should be enough punishment
And before he went to jail, they were all saying he have just gotten a warning or a fine. Now that he's already been to jail, it is easy to appear magnanimous and concede some time in jail, while still decrying the actual punishment and making Vick into a martyr.
And to that I say again, Vick did more time in jail for dog crimes than some do for crimes against humans. The Stallworth case is just an example, but others have detailed more examples in this thread where you can kill a person and get less time. You continuing to say the acts aren't similar still avoids the point, that a man has been punished for crimes against animals longer than some have been punished for crimes against humans. Ignore that all you like...but based on those facts, it's silly to say he hasn't been punished enough.
If you think the 23 months jail term was too lenient, then your beef is with the legal system, not the NFL. What we were saying before his sentence is irrelevant -- he did serve the two years. I did a quick google (is that a noun?), and couldn't find any nfl suspensions greater then 2 yrs for other than substance abuse, or gambling. Can you think of any NFL comparables that would indicate a suspension greater then 2 yrs was warranted? He didn't 'compromise' the game by gambling or drugs. I couldn't find any examples of non-game related misdeeds that earned suspensions significantly greater then the legal ones. So what would you consider an appropriate suspension?
To those that think he should not be allowed back into the NFL. QUESTION: What other Professions should he be barred from? Any that make alot of money? Any in the public eye? What other jobs should he NOT get? I'll start you off - 1. Pet walker or anything to do with pet . . . Go! Rocket River
The suspension is up to 6 games on top of the time served for prison. Donté Stallworth got a more severe punishment from the league than that. But if you just want long "suspensions", how 'bout Rae Carruth?
There aren't many people who think he shouldn't play football. As far as I can tell, there is only one person who popped in the thread briefly. Just that he shouldn't be looked at as aything but a scumbag lowlife.
