The issue with Vick is the willful, flagrant, and unnecessary sadism and torture for fun and profit. If he was killing dogs humanely for sustenance, with concern for the animals, I would have no problem. Dogs are innocents, like children. One can argue that some human beings have earned their fate. Not so with animals. It is related to the reason that so many people who might not normally get upset at the excessive fondness for the death penalty in Texas get upset when it is applied to a mentally r****ded man. The belief is that through cognisant action, some human beings can earn a horrible fate. Children, dumb animals, and the mentally deficient are incapable of doing so.
Where's the public outrage when a daughter of a judge gets off on driving drunk, killing her boyfriend and the ordeal being blamed on an illegal immigrant driving the vehicle she hit. Yet her record is cleaned, she can serve time in jail on weekends b/c of school and can live her second chance how she wants it. Then why can't Vick. Vick paid for his transgression larger than some and is still getting ridiculed. People like to pick and choose what they will say is fair and unfair. Hypocrisy
I'm okay with second chances, I just don't think they should always be carte-blanche second chances. And it goes hand in hand with paying his debt to society. I truly don't understand your last comment. First, you make a comparison to a completely different situation. We can discuss Stallworth if you want, but let's stick with Vick. Next, you say he served time and lost all his money. Okay...I'm with. Then you say, because of that, he paid his debt. Um...how exactly did Vick serving time and losing his money benefit society in any way (other than indirectly getting him of the streets so he couldn't do more harm). FYI for all misusing this phrase. Paying a debt to society, by definition, means, giving back to the world. Getting locked up and losing your money is not giving back to the world. I think this is the most valid argument. And again, I’m not against second chances. Still, I’d rather Vick come back and play in the NFL for a regular guy’s type salary. Pay him what a teacher gets paid and let him play in the NFL. And over time, let him have more and more access to better opportunities…but not immediately. Then, the story becomes, to me at least, your actions have serious serious consequences. It is NOT ok to mess up in ways that are very serious. You will be able to get your life back together and be given another chance, but there will be life long consequences even to one-time mistakes (granting this wasn’t something Vick just decided to do once). Couldn’t I, for example, just as easily argue that the Vick picture you paint is one that says it’s okay to mess up, you’ll another shot or two…I’d rather send the message that it isn’t okay to mess up in the first place – don’t make stupid, life altering mistakes. Just don’t do it. You’re an adult, you make adult decisions, they have serious consequences. I think the focus in this thread on Vick spending 2 years in jail and losing all of his money kind of buys into my concern there. I’m not discounting 2 years in prison. I’m not discounting losing one’s life savings. But what the guy did was wrong, immoral and frankly, disgusting. “Oh no…he’s not a millionaire anymore…”. Please…it would be nice if the guy actually did repay his debt to society…which is years and years of being an upstanding citizen, giving of yourself and expecting nothing in return. Tons of people in the world, myself included, spend countless hours every week, month and year supporting charitable organizations and doing good just out of the goodness of their own hearts. Yes, pets have been humanized. I don’t understand what’s wrong with that. I am more concerned about my dog than I am about your child…for the most part. I’m sorry if that makes me a douche…but it’s true. Now, if some kind of disaster takes place and I can only save your child or my dog, I’d save your child…but for less serious issues…well, my dog is more important to me. I mean, why exactly do you have a pet, otherwise? It’s hard to universal say how do you value one thing relative to another? I value human life more than animal life (mine or otherwise) as a whole. I value the life of pets more than the life of non-pet animals. I value, generally, animal life more than plant life. I value plant life more than rocks. I mean…that’s getting kind of strange, but I think you see where I’m going. Definitely you’re right. Personally, I don’t eat meat…partly because of the industry. I have worked in the food industry to the extent that I’ve been to kill facilities. It is eye opening, to say the least. Conversely, I do think it is fair to make a distinction. Humans are inherently omnivores. We don’t have to be, but were “designed” to be. I have no problems with heavy meat eaters, even. If I ever go back to meat, though, I will make strong efforts to eat free range type stuff. I do hope the food industry can change for the better. And? This has what to do with what? Is the judge’s daughter playing in the NFL now?
Elizabeth Shelton. She actually served four months and the truck driver was not blamed, nor was he the subject of the "illegals" accusation. But she is a first rate b**** and a twit who deserved way more than she got.
Why stop there? How about a job that pays $80k, benefits and all. Is that still too good for a Mike Vick? Maybe we should add people who run red lights to the list. Lets set a bar on how much they can make, hell, where they can go, what kind of car they can drive. Hypocrisy is a very slippery slope...
It has to do with hypocrisy. People jumping all on Vick about he shouldn't be allowed to work at a certain place that has nothing to do with the crime he committed. Yet other people of influence have done heinous things and have gotten lesser slaps on the wrist. Why selectively jump on him when he actually served his time?
I'd say going to prison and doing your time as well as losing all of your money and belongings pays a huge debt to society. It shows people, that if you do wrong then you will be punished no matter who you are. He is a poster boy for what doing wrong can lead to. Once the highest paid man in football now bankrupt because he wanted to do this stupid, illegal thing. Not only that but now he will have to be proactive in things like the NFL, the Humane Society, communities he is in, etc. to not only repair his image but to speak out to against criminal activity like he was partaking in. I won't necessarily say his debt is paid but to act like the time he served and money he lost does not count is a little ridiculous in my opinion. He can't get that type of salary for obvious reasons. Doesn't the time he spent in prison, the money he lost, and his suspension from NFL activities already show the seriousness of what doing wrong can do? Why step on somebody's neck and make it that much harder? So Vick should not get a second chance? Doesn't that contradict what you said earlier? What makes you think Vick won't do that for the rest of his life? Everybody from the commissioner to the coaches to the players have said that Vick is doing and saying all the right things right now and will have to continue to do so for the rest of his life. It's part of his repayment, I'd say. That's fine, I guess. That seems a little contradictory to what you stated previously. Don't count on the food industry changing. So it's not comparable because Vick is an NFL player?
How many evil acts are committed in the world every day? I watch Animal Cops on Animal Planet. The world is full of bad, worthless @ssholes who do what Michael Vick did. I spit on all of them. They disgust me every time I watch the show. But Michael Vick is more relevant because of his celebrity. If some random dude did what he did, I would just write it of as another depraved individual in a world with plenty already. There is so much evil committed in the world every day that I can hardly wrap my mind around it. Each of those scumbags may enter my conscious mind momentarily, but they quickly are forgotten. Vick, conversely, has an established public persona. The name recognition adds to personalizing the crime. If someone whose name I remember from school is arrested for something like this, I pay more attention than if some random person did it as well. So, yes Vick's celebrity makes is more relevant than some random judge's daughter. Sad to say, but perhaps if it was Judge Judy's daughter, or Judge Wapner's daughter, I might pay more attention. Before his deeds were uncovered, Vick's celebrity lead to special treatment in a positive way. The knife cuts both ways. If I have to keep seeing Vick's name, I have to keep remembering all the things that he did to dogs. If Vick really wants it all to stop, he can retire and become a hermit somewhere and people will forget about it given sufficient time.
When you get 2+ years in real prison for killing dogs, then I think you have paid your debt to society (isn't that what jail is for) considering that other people are out here killing people and you are serving more time than them. I have no choice but to compare it to another situation to show how silly it is to think this dude doesn't deserve a 2nd chance. He served two years in jail for being involved with the killing of dogs. Again, you can kill people and serve less time. He has paid his debt. I could see if he got off and didn't go to prison. Now if you are just really, really opposed to all forms of animal cruelty then I can understand you still being PO'd as long as you are against hunting and you don't consume meat from the meat industry (basically things where animals, not just dogs, are tortured for our benefit). Vick was wrong...but he went to jail and did two years. He served his time so let the man continue with his life.
Sure. I understand this isn’t feasible….but if asked would I think it’s fair to have some types of restrictions like these (though certainly not the analogies you threw out)…yes, I do. In fact, these types of restrictions already happened. Vick WAS restricted on where he could go, being under house arrest. My position is, given the crime and act committed, in this particular case, more and longer restrictions should be put on Vick. I still don’t get it. How is bad things happening to the person who committed the crime “paying a debt to society”? At MOST, it helps society by getting the guy out of it. Otherwise, nothing has been paid. I don’t even know what “does not count” means? Does not count for what? As punishment to Vick – yes, clearly this is punishment to Vick. But it’s not just about punishment, to me. It’s about giving back. Which he has done very very little of to date. The fascination with Vick losing all of his money and having to “work” to repair his image is kind of weird. Normal, law abiding citizens work to be good people and struggle with money issues on a daily basis. He’s already back in the NFL with a multi-million dollar contract. Sorry…I just think life SHOULD be harder for someone who has done what he’s done. At this point it isn’t. He’s basically been subject to what the law has concluded is fair punishment and moved quickly and easily back into an easy life. He’s got some work to do with the Humane Society and other organizations. Not that hard. I think life should be harder. I think he needs to give more. I don’t want to see him in the NFL. I think it’s not right that he gets to take someone else’s spot…a better person’s spot. I know it’s not the popular opinion. I don’t think he should spend the rest of his life in prison…I just don’t want to see him as a public figure being a role model for young kids. He is not a good role model….there is no way around it. Simple as that. We’ll just have to see. He’s clearly getting the benefit of the doubt going in though. What I said there wasn’t controversial. Why do you have pets, if not for companionship and friendship (which is humanizing?)? Well…I said universals are difficult. On the whole, I value human life more than animal life. But, as a random example, if I’m with my dog in public, and someone’s child is having a great time at the expense of my dog having a great time, I’m going to be upset. Your child and family are important to you. My family (which includes my pets) are important to me. Overall big picture, though, yes I place more value on humans. Basically, just pointing out how I feel about pets. I just don’t see any reason why you’d have a pet otherwise. Hey, great attitude! Well…partly. I guess my last comment wasn’t appropriate. I think the bigger issue was the guy brought up a random different situation. Same issue I have with people making the Stallworth comparison. One may feel this judge’s daughter got off lightly, and Stallworth got off lightly. But the conclusion I’m seeing people draw from that, including the post I quoted, was if they got off lightly, then Vick has “really paid the price” so to speak. Whereas, imo, the real conclusion should be Stallworth really got away with one…if that’s what you think (i.e. not Vick overpaid, but Stallworth underpaid). Moreover, again it is a pretty random thing to bring up. There are likely thousands of scenarios like the judge’s daughter that could be brought up…it’s probably better to look at the Vick case somewhat independently of the fairness of all other rulings. Is that what jail is for? Punishment…sure. Rehabilitation…sure. Prevention…sure. Revenge…sure. None of those give back to society. Your laid back attitude about the killing of dogs is somewhat disturbing. Do you have a dog? I don’t think you should be let free ever if you purposefully kill a person. But Vick didn’t kill a person…so we’re not really discussing punishment on that. Who isn’t? Serious question. Is anybody for animal cruelty? Some of my earlier posts address my issues with eating meat, etc. To reiterate, I do not eat meat, but have and may again and will try and do so in as humane a way as possible. I am fine with hunting when done so humanely. --------------------- Anyways...no more long posts for me in here. I understand I am in the minority on this position, and that's okay...it happens.
I realize that people are going to pay more attention to Vick because of who he is but that does not mean you cannot compare two cases because one is more famous than the other.
Why do you think he should be punished more than he already was/is? Yes, he paid his debt to society. A very bad man was sent away from society to prison where we hope, although most of the time it does not happen, they will be rehabilitated. Vick genuinely seems to realize what he did and the person he was before was disgusting and horrible and has said nothing less since giving interviews. Society, so it seems right now, has been given a better person than before that realizes the wrong that they have done and just want to move on with their life. Society has been rewarded with a better person than before. You were the one, in your initial post, saying the time served and millions lost do nothing to serve society (does not count). Didn't they in this situation? Giving back, have you even given him time? He's been out a couple of months and under house arrest during a large part of that and still on probation and what not. I'm sure there are things limiting him on what he can do right now. He's been putting in work with animal organizations, from what himself, Dungy, Lurie, and others have said he has and will need to continue to do. The Humane Society even thinks Vick getting back is a good thing. As stated above, he's been out maybe a month where he can really start to do something with these organizations. Give him some freaking time, sheesh. Easy life??? That is very funny. First, he has to deal with all the media and fan outcry. Second, he basically has to start his life over. Third, he has to continue to give back through work with animal organizations, speaking engagements, appearances, etc. if these places and people will let him, 50-70% of his income is going to pay debts as outlined in his bankruptcy dealings, so on and so on. There is nothing easy about it. Yes, and that's a good thing. Hopefully it keeps him from becoming a dreaded repeat offender and most of those repeat because nobody will give them a second chance. It's OK to humanize them to an extent but I put very few human lives over the life of my pets. Even those that I do not know. To each his own in that regard though. Basically, just pointing out how I feel about pets. I just don’t see any reason why you’d have a pet otherwise.[/QUOTE] Again, to each his own. Kind of like your own with the Vick situation, no? Well…partly. I guess my last comment wasn’t appropriate. I think the bigger issue was the guy brought up a random different situation. Same issue I have with people making the Stallworth comparison. One may feel this judge’s daughter got off lightly, and Stallworth got off lightly. But the conclusion I’m seeing people draw from that, including the post I quoted, was if they got off lightly, then Vick has “really paid the price” so to speak. Whereas, imo, the real conclusion should be Stallworth really got away with one…if that’s what you think (i.e. not Vick overpaid, but Stallworth underpaid). Moreover, again it is a pretty random thing to bring up. There are likely thousands of scenarios like the judge’s daughter that could be brought up…it’s probably better to look at the Vick case somewhat independently of the fairness of all other rulings.[/QUOTE] Fair enough. If a prisoner comes out truly rehabilitated, society does gain something. Do you not think so? I think the circumstances in which a person kills another person are crucial. They should not all be locked up forever. I do think killing people should warrant more severe punishments for those who kill/abuse animals though. What's a humane hunting method though? Is there really one? I hunt and I can tell you there is no real humane way to do it just like I am sure there is no humane way to kill a pig, cow, chicken, etc. Don't go just because you're in the minority, please. I think it is good when the minority is heard just as much as the majority. Stick around.
Prisoners typically have jobs that are performed for general society for the low-low (i.e. cleaning highways, making license plates, etc). Jail is a nice little industry of cheap labor for societies benefit. I don't have a laid back attitude about dogs (which I no longer have). I just don't think a man should get a longer punishment for killing a dog than for killing a person. You can continue to ignore that point if you like as it kills your argument that he hasn't been punished enough, but the facts are the man served more time for the killing of animals than some have served for the killing of humans. In that situation, I think it's silly to say he hasn't been punished enough.
Just wanted to say I agree with this. (Unless of course there's pain involved...and I don't think human-inflicted torture counts...).
You keep comparing dissimilar acts and just lumping them together as killing. In one case, Michael Vick knowingly and of his free will intentionally abused, tortured, and murdered dogs. In the other case, Stallworth was driving drunk and someone ran in front of his car and the man was killed. The Stallworth incident was an accident that might have occurred anyway had Stallworth not been drinking. The results in both cases were death but they're not the same acts. Furthermore, Vick fought against his charges and got ratted out by his friends whereas Stallworth settled a civil suit and pled guilty to the criminal charge very quickly. The circumstances here couldn't be any more different. I guarantee you if Stallworth tortured a man and killed him the way Vick did those dogs that Stallworth would get life in prison at the very least.
I'd like to think the life of a human being is a little more important than the life of a dog + how the dog felt before it died. The fact that people can compare the life of a human with a life of a dog is pretty mind-boggling. Personally, I'd rather people slaughter cows, pigs, and chickens more humanely than dogs. Because these animals serve the human society a lot more so than dogs. Now if only dog meat were tastier...
I'd like to think there aren't idiots who eat domesticated animals for food but people in some societies will eat anything that barks or meows.
I keep comparing dissimilar acts to show that a man killed some animals and got a stiffer punishment than a man that killed a human, yet somehow folks think he wasn't punished enough. Is it not dangerous to put yourself in those kind of situations when you drive drunk? Isn't that why they tell us not to do it? But he was drinking, and a man died. Please stop with the "it was an accident" talk because he willingly put himself in a position that was dangerous to himself and others. Folks keep saying there is no intent to kill when you do that, but anyone who drives drunk know something like that is a possibility....yet they say F it and get behind the wheel anyway. You are right that they aren't the same acts. But the facts are one guy killed a human and got less time than a animal killer, and folks say the animal killer wasn't punished enough. So silly to me. And again, I understand your beef if you don't eat meat from the meat industry or are against certain types of hunting (i.e. for sport).
