Individual freedom is essential for any culture to be considered valid, in my opinion. What if a culture would voluntarily choose communism? Is that culture "valid" to you, or do you deny them that choice? ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
After the execution (one bullet to the back of the head) the kidneys and liver are sold on the black market for organ transplants. They also make the family of the person they're executing pay for the bullet. China is facing an increasing problem in disproportionality between the number of men and women. As of right now, it's at least 2:1. On a side note, I'm off to Borneo soon. I know you're all jealous ,and hopefully I won't get eaten! ------------------ Ya ot be opredelennyj chelovek zhivoj [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited July 08, 2001).]
Culture- a : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon man's capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes a company or corporation Valid? That's a very strong position. Does it not have a right to exist, then? Is cultural genocide acceptable against invalid cultures? If not, why? -Haven You are playing the same words games as NKOTB. Culture is how a people live, not the people. Japan is a wonderful example of a culture that changed, embraced democracy, and thrived. It is easy for us to make decisions for other countries when we don't struggle with their problems. "Better" and "Superior" are subjective terms based solely on one's perspective. - Jeff I submit that much of their "problems" stem from not allowing individuals to be free. This is a question of right and wrong. All cultures are not equal, so I think terms such as "better" and "superior" are apropos. If we did that of ourselves, we would come to the conclusion that we are a society full of lying, cheating, scamming egomaniacs who will do anything to keep our money and our entrenched social position. -Jeff LOL! That sounds exactly like the humans I know! (perhaps your glass is half-empty?) I'd like to think that we should base our assessments of people as individuals rather than groups. - Jeff I am not talking about people, I am talking about culture. When Hitler went nuts and tried to kill off an entire "culture", do you blame the German "culture" or people, or do you blame the government? -RocksM. I blame the German culture. Fortunately, the Germans have changed their culture. Also, read the definition of "culture", and you will see that the Jewish culture could never have been exterminated by a lowlife like Hitler. What if a culture would voluntarily choose communism? Is that culture "valid" to you, or do you deny them that choice? - Shanna There is no culture who has ever "chosen" communism. If they did, there would have to be a mechanism in place to change the system if the people were unhappy for me to consider them "valid". Democratic Communism, anyone? on a side note, I am off to Borneo -TCL I am jealous as hell! Have a great time. ------------------
Whoops! I may have misread your thoughts. If you are asking if people have a right to eradicate an "invalid" culture, and not the people, then my answer is yes! We are attempting to kill off the culture of racism in America. Germans are trying to kill the culture of Nazism. There are many more examples, but I am sure you get my drift. ------------------
Government is a product of a society's culture is it not? Hitler was a product of German culture. Government and culture are pretty much intertwined. ------------------ First the Sopranos and now Eddie Griffin... thank you New Jersey!
I have been to China several times, and I see so much potential, but the Communists have beaten the people into submission. The few places where individuals can strive for excellence (mainly large seaport cities), are controlled by Chinese Communist party members who are basically organized crime chiefs. The current culture looks peaceful from the outside, until an individual steps out of line. If you say something that is viewed as pro-democracy, you may get charged with stealing gas (ex). Arrests and executions occur on the same day. It is a sad situation in China, and I wish the average American could see the poverty and malnutrition in the interior, while the Communist fatcats live a life of riches. Their culture was one that respected the greater good over the individual, and that is fine when mixed with altruism. However, when that culture is blended with amoral Stalinism, cultural evolution becomes impossible (in my opinion). [This message has been edited by Kingrene (edited July 08, 2001).]
I don't understand your point here. The culture of Tibet has been crushed and modified forever by the Chinese. Tibet is a good example of the ruthlessness of the current Chinese culture. The "unrest" I am talking about in Chinese occurs as we speak. Also, let's not compare our culture to their culture. We may have our problems, but Americans (including many Chinese Americans) have found a superior way to live. The Chinese people of Beijing came to a crossroads at Tienamen Square, and they sided with the government. Our culture is better than theirs, and I am thankful to be here! ------------------
I often wonder what version of american Events do the local chinese get like wise I wonder do I trust the media here to give us a clear picture of china I mean some of the events of america could be twisted to make the government look very oppressive [i.e. Waco, Aidella [ the guy in NY shot for nothing 41 times, Tim McVey] I know somewhere GWB is saying .. . if I had a China sized Texas I could have beat that Rocket River ------------------
gr81 -- what should they do?? how about something...anything! As King pointed out, the people of the nation ultimately sided with the govt over the students in the Tiannamen Square event. That tells you about all you need to know, IMHO. None of this is meant to be racist. Cultures are different. Theirs is a culture that values the community over the individual. In my viewpoint, our culture is a better place to be, for that point alone. Governments are nearly always products of the culture...just the way laws are a product of cultural. When people talk about American politics, they often say "we get what we deserve." I don't think it's unfair to apply that same standard to any other culture around the world. Keep in mind...when the Chinese govt was rolling over students, these govts were falling out of power in Eastern Europe. So the hands of the people aren't completely tied. It's not like this would be the first time in recorded history that a culture of people decided the govt was out of line and sought to replace it. ------------------
Governments reflect who holds power, it is not equivalent to "culture". The acts of Chinese who protest their government and risk their lives are as much as part of the culture as the oppressive government. Also, plenty of US GI's have been heroes, plenty have raped and assassinated women and children in wars not condoned by our public entities assigned with such responsibilities by our constitutional document (e.g, in Latin America). Does that mean such acts are endorsed by Americans--is that a part of our culture? One thing that does seem to be a pretty universal theme in countries and governments is nationalism. We might call it "Patriotism", and sing our call to return America back to its glory years, but when other nations act like this we call it fanaticism or reactionary movements. I can snicker at British politicians singing their call to “save the pound” or at Swiss extremists saying “save the cheese”, but if I said this about similar American calls I would get a very volatile response from many on the board. Every first world democracy has a mix of policies supporting individual liberty and capitalism and those for the common good (you can even use the dreaded "socialism" term). No ideology has worked in the real world, be it 19th century attempts of pure capitalism or 20th century communist efforts. The issues for 1st world democracies is what is the best balance of individual/community orientated policies (e.g., social security, Medicare, national park service, environmental protection organizations, and health protection organizations--FDA, Surgeon General are just a few examples in America), and our arrogance that "socialism has failed, capitalism has triumphed" does not further an intellectual debate on government and democracy. Finally, of all those who value “individualism” because it is healthy to have diversity in persons, I assume you also value various cultures because it is healthy to have diversity of groups. To recognize that it is benefit to allow and support persons to be different from one another because diversity brings strengths, but not recognize the same applies to cultures, simply large groups of individuals different from other groups of individuals, doesn’t make sense to be. Why value and recognize individual differences at the person level, but not at the level of collections of individuals (groups, societies). If you believe that diversity in all things allow the best to rise, it should apply to all levels—individuals, groups, states, cultures, nations, etc.
Finally, of all those who value “individualism” because it is healthy to have diversity in persons That's always seemed like the worst argument for individualism. It doesn't justify anything; why is diversity valuable, inherently? I believe in individualism because I believe it's the only level at which true ethical action is possible, as the individual is the only sentient, autonomous unit. ------------------ Clutchcity.net... source for all your Rockets, Astros, political, music, humor, and Gordita news.
While I don't disagree with the main point of your post, I have to point one thing out. If you think the chinese culture in China is the same as the chinese-american culture, you are sorely mistaken. Just spend a few years in just about any Asian country, and become part of their culture, and then move back to the US and try to be a part of the culture here, and you will find that they don't really bear much resemblance other than language, and the most basic values (sometimes). ------------------ Anyone need a C/C++/Win32/HTML/PHP/SQL/Java/Perl/x86 coder?
Desert -- you have a beautiful way of illustrating your views in posts that I rarely take the time to complete reading. simplicity is an art form! I haven't thought about it quite as deeply as you have, clearly. But I have always held that a govt and the laws of a nation are, in large part, a reflection of the culture they reside within. I see that there are moves, from within their changing culture, which seek an alternative to the communists in power today. Having said that, the people (in some form or another) have endorsed this govt of theirs. Try imposing laws restricting married couples from having multiple children here and see how far you get...see what the response is from the culture here. I do believe a government only lasts as long as the governed allow it to. Eventually, if it is out line with what the people want, there will be a revolution...or at least attempts at revolution. We're not seeing that on a broad scale in China...I'm sure there are many reasons for that..not the least of which is a culture that values community over individual. They would laugh at our concepts of private property, given their perspective. I'm simply saying that from a quality of life standard, and even perhaps from a moral standpoint (i realize you'll say those are my morals, not theirs -- but murdering infants, to me, is empirically wrong...there is no shade of grey there) our culture is superior to theirs. That's it. As for your analogy concerning the soldiers who raped the girl in Okinawa..it's not a very good one. Quite frankly, our govt has taken the stand that these jackasses should pay the price according to the laws of Japan. In China, the wrongdoing is actually being committed by those who have the final say in that country..the govt itself. These are not some people acting within their own discretion like the American soldiers. I am the last person to say our govt or culture is perfect. Those who know how I feel about the federal govt would certainly back me up on that statement. But there is absolutely no comparison. I think it's funny that people try to justify the Chinese govt by saying, "well, you just have to see it through their eyes...in their culture." Well, if that's what their culture produced, then quite frankly, that sucks! No matter how much moral relativism anyone tries to impress upon me, the actions of that govt are ridiculous and horrible all at once. ------------------
It is my view, but I view exploring diversity in all its forms-landscapes, plants, animals, individuals, groups, societies, cultures, etc., as keeping life interesting. I also think it is healthy for persons, societies, etc. Doesn't mean I don't believe people should have some common shared principles like if you hurt someone we will stop you from doing it again. MM, yes the posts I had read brought up a lot of thoughts, some more or less tangential to the thread. I'll try to be a bit more selective and narrow the focus. As far as your responses to my takes, I'll try to organize my thoughts on them: 1) actually, I wasn't referring to the Okinowa incident but more the systemic injustices in Latin America within the last 25 years. You could go back to Vietnam before that. 2) I would not compare our government to China's either. My point is there are plenty of dissidents in China, many of them are killed and tortured, these dissidents' ideas and actions reflect as much about the culture as the governments brutal crackdown does. I also think when (not if) its citizens reign in their government, China will shortly be the economic powerhouse of the world. This may not take place until the latter half of this century though. 3) Finally, I am not saying you invoke nationalism, but more generally I wanted to point out it is very easily for persons to fall in this trap. You can see Nationalism in nations across the globe, it appears to me to be a cultural universal. Like you I believe we should improve our government (my view does involve some reductions as well). I think a good place to start examining our government is by not invoking nationalism (e.g., say "we are the best so looking on how other nations/cultures do certain things is of no use to us"), and rather pick and choose the best way to do things across the globe. This really isn't a conservative or liberal philosophy, just a smart one.
You know, when I see you posting things like this, Haven, I just know I am looking at the writing of a future conservative-- because the value you place on the individual simply can't be reconciled with big-government socialism.
which begs the question: what percentage of people wanting a Change is enough to warrent intervention If 40% want democracy in a shooting war should we help them? even though 60% is kewl with status quo? Rocket River ------------------
Kingrene: Japan's culture hasn't changed as much as American's like to tell ourselves. After all, most of us wouldn't be comfortable being all snuggly with a nation that once treated all those POW's so harshly and raped Nanking... ...but Japan is still very similar to the way it was. They've just determined that economics is the best course to prosperity, rather than war. That's a strategic decision, not a philosophical one. patrick smith makes this argument very well in a recent book on the topic. He was a reporter who has lived in Japan for decades now, and he traces historical trends from the the Tokugawa shogunate through the Meiji Restoration to modernity... and finds that in some ways very little has changed. Japan certainly isn't as Westernized as many woudl claim. For example, LDP didn't lose power ONCE from 1952 till 1995. That's 43 years of monolithic single-party rule. They lost power for a few months, and have regained it for the past 6 years. Some judge a democracy based on two legal power-transitions. By that standard, Japan became a legitimate democracy in 1995. Others argue that the opposition must hold power for a meaningful period of time. By that standard, Japan is STILL not a democracy. Besides, this, the Japanese bureaucracy has far more power than we're accustomed, too. You say that Japan supports free markets, etc... but their internal markets aren't really free. In battles between MITI and the energy and steel sectors... MITI always won and enforced their will upon private companies in discretionary matters. It's a complicated nation. ------------------ Clutchcity.net... source for all your Rockets, Astros, political, music, humor, and Gordita news. [This message has been edited by haven (edited July 09, 2001).]
