MacBeth, thanks for your post, I would just like to clarify one thing, which is that people (the overwhelming majority) do NOT see ANY positives when thinking about Hitler. There was actually plenty of discussion about this in my school...we brought up some of the lame excuses some neo-nazis use to let Hitler appear in a more positive light like "Yeah, but he built all the Autobahnen"..."Yeah, but he reduced unemployment"...and we dissected them one by one. So, just to avoid misunderstanding, I was not brushing off bad aspects of Hitler or trying to sweep something under the carpet like perhaps some might argue some do with the Founding Fathers, but I rather do think that Hitler is probably the worst individual that has ever had a place in history, and this is why I react sensitively when I get the impression that Germany is reduced to being associated with Hitler when this thread had nothing whatsoever to do with him.
Perhaps it is a matter of time...it hasn't been that long since Hitler was in Power. How do the French think of Napolitan? (Sp?) Wasn't he almost as bad as Hitler? Is he thought of in the same light by France?
It's very different, Napoleon Bonaparte actually has some important achievements in European history, plus, there was no genocide as horrible as the one committed by the Nazis ever in the history of the world. But I am sure MacBeth could give more information on that.
Oy Vey! No comparison at all. Napoleon wasn't genocidal, actually stood for Representative govt, although less so later, relative to those who opposed him, and almost always warred in self defense. It's interesting that he was demonized at the time by the monarchies around him, in large part because they feared Democracy would rise up in their own countries if he stayed in power, and yet, over time, while we have all abandoned monarchy in favor of a government system more similar to Napoleon's, we maintain the propogandized portrayal of him from the time. His greatest evil was that while he originally represented all that was seen to be good in representative government, did away with the Terrors of the French Revolution, and imposed rep govt's wherever he conquered in defense, later he prioritized efficiency over idealism, and was elected ( a genuine election, not a sham) as Dictator, and took on aspects more similar to prevailing monarchs, although still much more Reresentative, started handing out crowns to family members, and imposed a strict trade embargo against France's enemy, Britain. That the worst that can be said of him is that later he became more like the leaders of the nations which opposed him, and yet to this day people think of him on a scale with Hitler is among the greatest historical misconceptions of all time.
Actually, you brought up a key word...misconception. It obviously was my misconception of Bonaparte's reign that had me lump him in with Hitler, as it was Manny's misconception that German's sweep Hitler under the rug, or that SJC's misconception that people wouldn't automatically associate famous Germans with Hitler. I wouldn't call that stupid or malicious or purposely inflammatory
Lol! Thanks for the lead in... Among Napoleon's accomplishments was a legal code which still serves as the basis for law in many areas of the 'free' world, a promotion of the concept of meritocracy beyond what any leader in modern history had done, clarification of political areas of power, etc. In addition, almost anything he set his mind to, he bettered with brilliance. He took a look at the French postal service, and invented the concept we now use for addresses ( Numbers, starting at 1 from a dividing street, with even numbers on one side and odd on the other, etc.) to this day. His army had a problem with maintaining provisions, so he invented canned food. He was the overseer who brought modern archeology to the fore during his time in Egypt. It goes on and on...probably the most brilliant all around mind on the last millenium, with respect to Leonardo, in terms of being able to apply his mind to a vast variety of subjects with practical brilliance. And his greatest area, which hasn't even been mentioned, military strategy and tactics, in which he is considered head and shoulders above anyone else in modern history.
Maybe not that far, but he is still seen as a War Monger, tyranical, etc., none of which, relative to his time, are remotely accurate.
All very accurate comparisons. Mao is still revered, whereas Stalin in almost as reviled in Russia as Hitler is in Germany, lrgely thanks to Kruschev.
There is a huge discussion of historians in Germany if the cruelties of the Nazis should even be compared in any way to cruelties of other dictatorships, and I believe the majority of German historians says one should not even go there, as it appears like one would want to relativize (?) German historic guilt, which we do not want to do. There are some revisionist historians who try to make our guilt appear smaller by pointing out the cruelties of other regimes, but that is not the majority approach. Obviously these guys were bad guys, too, it's just that the Nazis organized mass murder in such a horribly efficient way that there are basically no comparisons. Behad, regarding the misconception, I have to correct that I did not make that misconception. I am fully aware that Hitler is one of the most famous, if not THE most famous German. However, the thread was about "best" Germans, and it just seemed absurd to me that someone could have the misconception that bringing up Hitler in this context could be appropriate.
Yes, I did. I called Manny's misconception stupid, which I regret now, and I called Smeg's approach to this thread purposely inflammatory, which is confirmed by his reaction and which he should apologize for. At the very least it is highly insensitive out of ignorance, which I would not have expected from an intelligent person.
Cool... I'm done, except for one thing: How about Olivia Newton-John? Did she make the list? Australian, you say? Check this: "Olivia Newton-John was born in Cambridge, England on September 26th 1948; her family moved to Australia when she was 5. Her mother was German, daughter of the physicist Max Born, her father was Welsh, a professor of German at Cambridge and Melbourne."
Yes, I indicated there already that I thought it would be inappropriate to discuss this in this thread in this forum, which was fine until someone from down under trampled into this thread .
