DoD: No that's not the one, although it probably is a better one than the one I was expecting... Maybe if God can't create the rock he can't lift it actually proves how omnipotent he is? I mean afterall, if nothing can exist that God can't lift/conquer/destroy/whatever, that just goes to show that he is omnipotent. And to get around that pesky little Catch22, one can assume that since God created existence, maybe he created existence in a way that he could never be outdone by anyone, including Himself... Which in a way would actually kind of be outdoing himself in the first place... [This message has been edited by AntiSonic (edited July 06, 2000).]
BobFinn, I believe God exists. I think he just chose not to leave any evidence of his existence. Why? Why not? I think it's useless for finite beings to try understand what is infinite. I think we are almost eternally distant from a phase of being capable to do so (understand God). But it's nice to try. Thanks for bringing this topic up. ------------------ "One who conquers others is strong; One who conquers himself is mighty" - Lao Tzu
AntiSonic: 1. That first little bit was not "invented" by Bolsheviks. While it may have seemed as a Socialist/Communist propaganda rant, it has nothing to do with it. Philosophers were challenging such points long before Socialism was ever concocted. It is mostly a logic pattern. Of course it will be used as a tool. I am not just saying it is a bad tool, either. Look at Jewish ideology. The whole idea of keeping kosher was to prevent health problems. When the more educated started learning about risks with certain types of food, diesease carrying animals, etc, they created a system of regulations for the people to follow to dictate what they could and couldn't eat. Making it come from gos was much more compelling than coming from "your local gaverment". If it was used this way, it could also be used in others. The Devine Right of King - "God chose this person to rule over you. No matter how cruel he is, if you think bad thoughts or even suggest any kind of uprising, you will be going against God and will go to Hell." This allowed for many deranged kings (after all of that inbreeding, they statred to get deformations and mental illness) to do what they pleased with no possibility of punishment. All in God's name. 2. You still have not answered my question. You say God created Hell before man...how did god create Hell? He had to come up with ways to torture bad people - burning, snakes, all sorts of nasties. If he is pure good, these should be foreign. On the subject of Hell - the Devil, how did that come about? If God is so great, why did he create an angel that could go against his wishes. People, maybe, but an angel? This is supposed to be his helper. Sure, you can say that he wanted an evil counter - so why not just create the devil in the first place? Why bother with all of the charades? 3. God gave man the doppler radar? Why did he wait 1900 years to allow us to be able to counter natural disasters? Did all of those people deserve to die before? Did we have to earn it? Additionally, because of technology, fewer die during natural disasters, thus reducing the population control. Yet, there are higher birth rates so the world is expanding. There are population problems...Why would God be so inconsistent? 4. God/punishment/jesus: I was not going to metnion this, but since you did...There are many problems I have with this, but I will only counter with one. What if people had 4 parents, all telling them something different...would it be fair for all of them to punish? There are many different religions preaching different rules. Which is right? What about religions that do not have Jesus? Do they not have the chance to be forgiven? A buddhist, for example will be one of the most peaceful, spiritual, and good people on the earth. Just because there is no Jesus, they suffer? Christians have done a lot of bad things in history (inquisition, holy wars, killing scientists, etc), why do they all still get absolution? And no, I am not a buddhist. With all of these contradicting religions, plus contradictions within each religion, how can anything be followed? I have to end now, I have to go to work. I am curious, what philosophical question did you expect me to throw out next? ------------------ rimbaud post-a-thon 2000 *Your Ad Here*
rimbaud- "How did god create Hell? He had to come up with ways to torture bad people - burning, snakes, all sorts of nasties. If he is pure good, these should be foreign." I don't see how creating a form of punishment is evil at all. There have to be consequences for bad actions. Sure, torture is inhumane, but so is murder, rape, and mutilation. I forgot who said it but they said it best: "Two wrongs don't make a right, they make even." In punishing people in Hell, God is vindicating all of their victims on Earth and in Heaven. "God gave man the doppler radar? Why did he wait 1900 years to allow us to be able to counter natural disasters? Did all of those people deserve to die before? Did we have to earn it? " Nope, God didn't give man doppler radar. God gave man the intelligence to create doppler radar. When you think about, 1900 years isn't really that long a time compared to how long every other life form that came before us had that couldn't even reach a stone age. Did those people deserve to die? A lot of them probably didn't but you have to realize that God made this planet to work in a certain way. Accidents happen a lot and even though it's impossible to tell 99% of the time, it's still not a good idea to found your city at the base of a volcano. And just like anything else in life, yes man had to earn the doppler radar. You can't just run around complaining about hurricanes and not do anything about them and expect a cure to come falling out of the sky. People, as they always have, have to apply their knowledge and work towards achieving goals. "What about religions that do not have Jesus? Do they not have the chance to be forgiven? A buddhist, for example will be one of the most peaceful, spiritual, and good people on the earth. Just because there is no Jesus, they suffer? Christians have done a lot of bad things in history (inquisition, holy wars, killing scientists, etc), why do they all still get absolution? And no, I am not a buddhist. With all of these contradicting religions, plus contradictions within each religion, how can anything be followed?" You'd have to ask someone more qualified than me on that one. Sorry that I brought up Christianity while we are only on the subject of God's existence. I just thought that one branch would help justify some of his actions, but of course, I'm sure Juddaism and Islam have ways to reprent too... I always wondered what would happen if someone led a good life and never heard of God... There are probably a lot of loopholes to help get more deserving people in... "what philosophical question did you expect me to throw out next?" I don't want to tell you right now because I think I've been posting waaaay too much. I'm positive you'll come up with it at work... I'll give you a hint though: it's along pretty much the same lines as the last one you gave ecxept on a waaaaay bigger scale. ------------------ WE WILL WATCH THEM FALL... next year, at least. [This message has been edited by AntiSonic (edited July 06, 2000).]
God had created the Earth to Please Man , Man had a covenant with God which he broke , then God created Pit Vipers , Dumb Blondes , Those Milk cartons that cant be folded to be opened , etc ------------------ Will Work for Clutch 101 Book
Anti and Rimmy, Thank you both for some very stimulating reading. I am not a believer in heaven or hell as certain religions profess it to be. Why would a supreme being care if his creation was good or evil? Especially if he had given it free will. If there are such places as heaven or hell they are in each and every one of us. Our concious mind knows right from wrong. We have an innate ability to reason. Not to change the subject, (this should actually be another thread) but, what is a soul? Is it our subconcious? Is it our mind that survives after death? ------------------ "When your dead, anything's funny."-John Lennon
One thing I never got was the whole "God sent Jesus to die for our sins so that we could be forgiven" thing. If God is SO great and SO powerful and SO all-knowing, then why did he have to send Jesus to die at all? God is all-this and all-that but he is incapable of forgiving on his own? That makes no sense to me. ------------------ I need a new signature. 302
I guess The people needed some person or something to carry the burden for all the peoples sins , Kinda like bill clinton ------------------ Will Work for Clutch 101 Book
So far I am zero for zero on cult members and newsletter sign-ups . My interpretation is getting zero backing. I know it's my way...yeah yeah....because God told me . Why can't I be a cult leader....why? At least come see me preach my sermon. And I won't make you divorce your wives and take all your money ! Nothing else matters......(just looking for a place to sneak that catchy phrase in).... except maybe the Rockets!!! YEAH! WOOHOO! WAAAAZZZZZZZZZUUUUUUPPPPPP GOD! AHHHHHHHHH! God: MEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!! Surf Sorry Aussie Smeg...I couldn't resist! <PRE> Fosters: It tastes like piss and God didn't invent it. P P P PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIII SSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSS SSSSSS SSSS SS Good Day! </PRE> [This message has been edited by Surfguy (edited July 06, 2000).]
Maybe be there is some form of higher existance or being, but one things for sure someone did invent BEER and that can only be a good thing. ------------------ Stuff BBS, the Rockets and you guys It's all Clippers these days, come join the bandwagon and visit http://www.ClippersCity.net
Negative atheist all the way! ------------------ please venture to atheistalliance and rocketsonline I AM SPARTACUS
AntiSonic I am not bringing up more arguments until you fully answer my #2. First, yeah, torture is evil. Saying that you will burn someone for ever and ever is not the work of a benevolent, peaceful being. It is a sick thing. Punishment is different. Parents saying, "no tv" is different than parents saying, "get oevr here so I can break your legs - it will teach you not to run in the house." Again, they would be villified and locked up. Besides, I do not like the idea of all of us as children that have to be punished and scolded. There have been a great number of atheists that have done wonderful things for humanity, whether it be literature, philosophy, science, whatever. They have done more to help humanity than, say, your local priest (no, I am not saying all atheists are great and all religious people are not - just an example). Just because they do not beleive in a God (of any kind - I will make it easier - not just jesus) means that they must suffer eternally? That is a rediculous. "Well you may have cured cancer, but you didn't beleive in me (despite the fact that I never showed you any proof). Therefore, I will send you to hell where you will have serpents attacking you forever." Well, that would be wrong. If it is indeed true, then I will gladly rebel against such a system. I still have no idea what you are talking about with what my next argument wil be...whenever anyone says they know what my next argument will be, it throws me off. I start thinking, "how can they really know how my mind flows?" Then it gets difficult... Antiman, you can never post too much, I am enjoying this. Bobb: You are not making this easy. Soul is too nebulous to really define. There are far to many variations/approaches. Even with similar beleifs, it could be completely different. A soul is what you say it is. It is whatever makes you, well, you. Do I think it is a cloud that floats from body to bady? No. It is the chemical reaction, the electricity that occurs within your body that is unique to you. But that is just my thing... Surfguy, I'll listen to you preach. I have always wanted to be in a cult. ------------------ rimbaud post-a-thon 2000 *Your Ad Here*
Rimmy, Just found an interesting article: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/000612/mind.htm It talks about consciousness being a person's soul. ------------------ "When your dead, anything's funny."-John Lennon
If anyone is looking for books to expand their religious view then you should definitely pickup the works of Michael Martin. His philosophical writings are phenomenal. Atheist all the way!!. ------------------ please venture to atheistalliance and rocketsonline I AM SPARTACUS [This message has been edited by DEANBCURTIS (edited July 06, 2000).]
Luther Burbank, naturalist, originator of new fruits, flowers, etc., was born in Massachusetts in 1849. he was always devoted to nature study, especially plant life, with which he early began to experiment. He moved to Santa Rosa, California, in 1875, where he conducted Burbank's Experiment Farms. He often had several thousand distinct experiments under way --- even at the time of his death growing some five thousand distinct botanical specimens from all over the world. He was also a special lecturer on evolution at Leland Stanford, Jr., University. His fame as a botanist and inventor of new plant forms awakened widespread interest in plant breeding throughout the world. In January, 1926, Luther Burbank made a declaration of agnosticism to a newspaper reporter. Although Burbank's rationalistic convictions were not by any means unknown to readers of his books, or to his friends, the publication of this interview in the newspapers created a furore of criticism throughout the country. Since it then became known generally to the public at large, the facts about Luther Burbank's agnosticism were news. In spite of criticism from the pulpits, he refused to qualify his unequivocal statements. "I am an infidel," he said. About the middle of March Luther Burbank became Ill with gastro-intestinal complications. He died April 11, 1926. Lest the "last words" of this infidel be garbled in future ages to delude credulous mankind, it should be emphatically stated that Luther Burbank did not recant --- even the newspaper accounts of his death made this fact clear. He remained an infidel until the last --- an unbeliever, scientifically sure of himself, passing from life into darkness. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WHY I AM AN INFIDEL Science is knowledge arranged and classified according to truth, facts and the general laws of nature. Our Dr. David Starr Jordan defines it more briefly as "organized human knowledge" or "human experience tested and set in order." There are always at least two sides of every question which may be suggested to the human mind. Sometimes both views are correct, but far more often one is right, and according to facts and truth, the other wrong. All personal, social, moral and national success depends upon the judicious wisdom of our choices made by the aid of science. Narrow personal prejudices and feelings quite too often becloud the issue and ultimate defeat is the inevitable result. Life as we see it around us on this planet is usually thought to be confined to man, animals and plants, those organisms which grow and reproduce their kind with more or less precision. Why should we omit crystals which grow as truly as plants and reproduce themselves quite as precisely to type, or the more primitive forms of life which are reproduced by division? Science is proving that the world is not half dead, but that every atom is all life and motion. Life is self-expression, intricate organized polarity. The lure of happiness and the fear of pain are fundamental qualities possessed by all living things and are the two forces which have through untold millenniums kept what we usually call life from destruction by the ever encroaching outside forces of destruction. Life is heredity plus environment. At birth of a plant, animal or man, heredity has already been fixed. Environment may now call into action only those tendencies which have been experienced in the age long past, yet may recombine and intensify them in a most surprising way. Such a modification is limited, generally, to the individual, but may, if repeated generation after generation, by slow increments at last become fixed and available in the species. Assimilation and reproduction are, and, of course, must be fundamental and universal. The power of adaptation to various conditions which beset all life may also be considered as fundamental for the continuation of any species. All these various powers of adaptation have to be acquired individually and repeated indefinitely until so fixed in the life stream that they are reproduced. ~Repetition~ is the means of impressing any quality or character in animal life or in man and by just the same means plants are impressed, and their qualities and habits changed as we desire. All life depends upon a series of selections, and repetitions. The first faint glimmerings of choice may be seen in the polarity of the magnet, next we see it perhaps in plants and the more primitive forms of life, and as we mount higher and higher in the scale of life there is more and more freedom of choice and less dependence upon heredity. Ancient tribes and nations had many gods, often one for almost every phenomenon of nature. The Hebrews have the credit of inventing the conception of our monotheistic Jewish-Christian God, who however is represented as having most of the weaknesses and bad habits of primitive man; this was a step in the path of evolution toward man's present conception of God; the God within us is the only available God we know and the clear light of science teaches us that we must be our own saviors, if we are to be found worth saving; in other words, to depend upon the "kingdom within." The manhood and womanhood which would make the most of life in ~service~ to others is a sublimated form of the best of self which leads the way to a long lifetime of usefulness, happiness, health and peace. There are without doubt some human beings in every nation, who, according to our present standards of civilization are truly civilized, but grave doubts may be entertained as to any community or any nation who could in any way measure up even to this standard scale of life, where we find more and more ~freedom~, but even man today is far from free. Slaves yet to war, crime and ignorance --- the only "unpardonable sin." Slaves to unnumbered ancient "taboos," superstitions, prejudices and fallacies, which one by one are slowly but surely weakening under the clear light of the morning of science; the savior of mankind. Science which has opened our eyes to the vastness of the universe and given us light, truth and freedom from fear where once was darkness, ignorance and superstition. There is no personal salvation, there is no national salvation, except through science. There are too few who exploit the inexhaustible forces of nature and far too many who exploit their fellow beings. Useless waste and unnecessary parasitism take at least nine- tenths of the productive capacity of the United States. Will the growing intelligence of man (Science) forever tolerate the wholesale production of the ever-increasing proportion of idiots, morons, mongoloids, insane, criminal, weak, destitute, nervous, diseased half men and women who infest the earth to their own sorrow and disgrace and perhaps the ultimate destruction of our present state of civilization? A knowledge of the fundamental laws of nature, not inefficient palliatives, is the ~first~ step. Is there a problem equal to the building of a better humanity? Our lives as we live them are passed on to others whether in physical or mental forms tinging all future lives forever. This should be enough for one who lives for truth and service to his fellow passengers on the way. No avenging Jewish God, no satanic Devil, no fiery hell is of any interest to him. The scientist is a lover of truth for the very love of truth itself, wherever it may lead. Every normal human being has ideals, one or many, to look up to, reach up to, to grow up to. Religion refers to the sentiments and feelings; science refers to the demonstrated everyday laws of Nature. Feelings are all right, if one does not get drunk on them. Prayer may be elevating if combined with works, and they who labor with head, hands or feet have faith and are generally quite sure of an immediate and favorable reply. Those who take refuge behind theological barbed wire fences, quite often wish they could have more freedom of thought, but fear the change to the great ocean of scientific truth as they would a cold bath plunge. Mr. Bryan was an honored personal friend of mine, yet this need not prevent the observation that the skull with which Nature endowed him visibly approached the Neanderthal type. Feelings and the use of gesticulations and words are more according to the nature of this type than investigation and reflection. Those who would legislate against the teaching of evolution should also legislate against gravity, electricity and the unreasonable velocity of light, and also should introduce a clause to prevent the use of the telescope, the microscope and the spectroscope or any other instrument of precision which may in the future be invented, constructed or used for the discovery of truth. ------------------ "When your dead, anything's funny."-John Lennon
Bobb: Interesting about Burbank, the consciousness article is why I dislike magazines such as US News - it does not really get into anything in detail. Not enough to really form an opinion. DEAN: What? Books I can buy? I am always looking for new books about religion - from all sides/persuasions. How old are you? I do not mean this as a put-down or anything, I am just curious. I think I remember you saying once, but am unsure. If you want any other book suggestions, email me at the address in my profile and I'll tell you the ones I know about. Back to Bobb: I believe strongly in the power of the mind. It is my favorite church. The problem is, we know so little. It is almost unfair that we have enough understanding to know how complicated it is, but not enough to understand it. It is this dichotomy that creates the need for a soul. It possibly explains questions for some peole. Our minds are much stronger/durable than our bodies. We can make ourselves well, we can make ourselves sick. If we beleive it strongly enough, we can make ourselves bleed (incorrectly) from tiney holes in our hands to be like Jesus. Our bodies give off signals, energy - positive and negative. Like everything else in this world, we are chemical compounds, always in motion. I find this much more fascinating and romantic than the "soul" as defined by some religions. ------------------ "One evening I seated Beauty on my knees. And I found her bitter." "I am a sick man...I am a wicked man. An unattractive man. I think my liver hurts."
Here is a online book site with over 11,000 books: http://digital.library.upenn.edu/books/ Another good philosophy site: http://www.philosophynews.com/ ------------------ "When your dead, anything's funny."-John Lennon [This message has been edited by BobFinn* (edited July 06, 2000).]
rimbaud- I once shared your views on the punishments handed down to good people just because they don't believe in God. But you can still see it as a parent child relationship like this: Parent gives birth to child. Parent genetically and physically endows child with certain traits and gifts that allow child to become very smart. Child goes onto college, gets a degree and does many great, great things(perhaps even with some "intervention" on the parents' parts). But, child hears things discrediting his parents. Child begins to think not so fondly of his parents and stops talking to them. Parents still love child yet are offended by child's lack of respect towards them. Parent tries to repair the relationship with gifts, love, etc. but to no avail. It is ultimately the child's decision whether or not he acknowledges his parents. So if you look at it that way, not believing in God is kind of like saying "**** you" to His face. This kind of stuff causes God to draw a line in the sand. You're either with the Big Guy or you're not. He wants and will let you come back over at any time and he will embrace you. But you only get so many chances and he can only take so many slaps in the face. And that is why I think denying God is punished so harshly. And who knows, since God is benevolent there's probably a clause for people who were good but never heard anything about God to get into Heaven, and I agree- it would reek of injustice if there wasn't. ------------------ WE WILL WATCH THEM FALL... next year, at least.
AntiSonic: At least we can proove that our parents exist. Now what if, taking the same example, you are born and have always lived with people who are not your parents. They claim that your parents exist - that they have talked to them - and that you must do as they say. Now, you never see your parents, you are just told by these other people that this is what they want, they love you, etc. If you turn your back on them (these supposed other parents), is that your fault? How do you know if the people telling you about your parents are really not your parents. Why all of the games? If there is a god, wouldn't it be better if he made all of us aware that he did indeed exist, thus people would be more inclined to follow "his word"? I know, it is better for people this way...but I do not want a trickster god. I am sorry, but twice you have mentioned clauses that may or may not exist to save people. This is a cop out and it goes against everything doctrine has taught us - the only way to salvation is through acceptance. Did all peole that pre-dated Judaism and the creation of monotheism go to hell as well? Why did monotheism take so many thousands of years of human existance to come into being? And, man, you are killing me - not telling me what argument you were expecting next. Also, I would be interested in knowing your thoughts on Bobb's soul question. ------------------ "One evening I seated Beauty on my knees. And I found her bitter." "I am a sick man...I am a wicked man. An unattractive man. I think my liver hurts."
This has been a very interesting read! My take on the God issue, without specifically answering anything that has been posed by anyone else is the following: I believe in a higher power, whether that higher power is the God that I was raised to believe, or something else. I try to live a good life, be a good person. This, I believe will lead me to something better when I die, no matter what it is. It may be heaven, it may be eternal bliss, it may be courtside at a new downtown arena sitting next to my girlfriend watching the Rockets win their 50th championship in a row, but I don't know. I choose to believe in Christ. I believe that he was a form of a higher power. However, I don't put much stock into the Bible. The only part I do put much stock in is the story of Jesus. I find it interesting that he had nothing to say about women being subordinate, or about homosexuals being sinners. From that, I make the conclusion that he/she/it is real. The writers of the Bible wouldn't distort the word of Jesus. However, I believe that God wrote the entire Bible just a little bit more than I believe that David Koresh was the Messiah. Basically, I know I'm a good person, and the higher power knows I'm a good person. That's good enough for me. For an interesting read, check out The Science of God by Gerald Schroeder. It discusses many of the issues that have been discussed in this thread. ------------------ Just because you're white and play basketball doesn't mean you're a Matt Bullard clone, despite idiotic accusations to the contrary. visit www.swirve.com
