An Old Kind of Politics: House Republicans blocking stimulus

The republicans may be saying no to the "stimulus" for the wrong reasons but they are right for saying no to the "stimulus".

("stimulus" in quotes because its going to do anything but stimulate the economy once the foreign credit drys up)

 

Learned their lesson?


Horse****. Utter horse****.

 

This isn't true. There are plenty of banks that didn't screw this up - for example, JP Morgan and Wells Fargo, did a really good job of managing their risk and still being profitable, successful banks. Saying that banks were forced to do stupid things is simply a way of saying there is no such thing as personal responsibility. It's like saying baseball forced people to use steroids.

 

America is watching....

from Josh--

Lay of the Land

As you know, this afternoon the House passed the Democratic Stimulus package with a sprinkling of Democratic defections and no Republican votes. From the standpoint of political accountability, if nothing else, this clarifies things. If the public ends up judging this a success or a failure, they'll have little doubt who to punish or reward for the decision.

But let's step back and take stock of what the public appears to be seeing.

This afternoon, Diageo/Hotline released the second part of its recent poll (Jan. 21/24), which leaves little doubt about the public mood.

So, President Obama is extremely popular. The Stimulus Bill is pretty popular. Hill Democrats are reasonably popular. And Hill Republicans are deep in Bush unpopularity territory, as much as they now try to distance themselves from the man they once wrapped their party around.

It grated on a lot of people -- and I include myself -- to see Obama going every extra length to cater to Republican nonsense. But it's left little question who was doing what. One benefit the Republicans carry out of the 2008 election is that most of the remaining Republicans come from districts that are so red that it's hard for Democrats to ever contest them. But not all of them. And in a lot the industrial Midwest especially, the GOP is the party of 'no'.

--Josh Marshall

 

I was hoping to find a good discussion on the pros and cons of the stimulus package in D&D and all I get are those how think Obama can do no wrong praising him and those who think he can do no right predicting he will fail.

Is there any middle ground around here?

 

Stimulus plan Pros:
1. classic keyensian response to our fiscal problems. Americans aren't spending money so the government has to step in and do it for us. Can't cut interest rates any more so got to just spend money

2. If we can finance it somehow the economy will keep rolling along relatively well for a while, maybe a number of years. Best case we probably have 6 more years or so until next financial meltdown.

3. Builds infrastructure whose positive externalities increase economic efficiency and production.

4. People get to keep their jobs. More jobs "created."

5. lots of money for STD prevention and little niche stuff like that. Obama becomes even more popular with everyone. Democrats smile.

Cons:
1. Massive inflation could occur resulting from an inability to finance the measure without a printing press. New currency issued because dollar becomes worthless (lol).

2. If the economy does "get back to normal" next financial meltdown is going to be even worse. Interest rates stay low, and America becomes even more of a debtors nation. Taxes are raised in the future to help finance multi trillion government deficit.

3. bloated government spending crowds out private investment crippling long term growth. No underlying change addressing real problems...lack of exports and excess debt.

4. continued inefficient allocation of the workforce in unprofitable jobs that shouldn't exist (the financial sector comes to mind)

5. It appears to work for a while causing Democrats to get even more popular (if that's possible) and Republicans contemplate suicide.

 

I don't think I am going to be very inclined to buy that new flat screen TV when CNN is telling me about people in hour waits for soup kitchens in Detroit. Fixing this economy is all about confidence. Consumer confidence that their jobs will still be there in a month, confidence the government is capable of dealing with a crisis, and confidence from banks that loans are safe. None of that is going to happen if we have food riots, because people will be too scared to spend. Basically, this bill needs to find a balance between real economic and psychological impact to be successful.

 

That's where I don't understand where spending $200 mill on STD education or $650 mill for this digital program udate vouchers or whatever that is, will help to stimulate the economy. Are they just trying to slide other agendas in and pass it along as if we need it to stimulate the economy. I'm not saying some of this stuff is not necessary and I know the stuff costs money, but under this bill, I don't see how it fits.

 

Still waiting for you to refute those figures, by the way. And last I checked, Republicans had control of both houses for 12 consecutive years before 2006...those sneaky Democrats.

 

Yes the Dems were just trying to sneak other projects along. That's why it's good that Obama got them to eliminate some of the pork in it and included more tax cuts.

 

And now we move to the Senate...

From a purely political perspective, there is nothing but good things for Dems should the Repubs filibuster and the Senate leadership actually require them to engage in a real filibuster. Probably not the best thing for the economy however.

 

You my friend are uninformed in matters finance and economics.

Sub-prime lending is the major catalyst driving this economic crisis. Average people like you only think about the direct lending from institution to borrower and the subsequent defaults and failure of mortgages. Now you are correct in the assumption that even if 100% of all sub-prime loans failed it could not create the current crisis. However the real issue is the behind the scenes packaging and selling of these loans in all sorts of derivatives.

Banks used sub-prime pool in mortgage backed securities or CMOs and CDOs, sold them to everyone on Wall Street and Foreign Banks. This created leverage for the banks to lend more money and take more risk because these loans would now reflect as assets on the banks' balance sheet.

Now the real problem begins when a significant portion of the loans default and the entire chain of derivatives become worthless. Multiple that by the leverage factor a bank has on each sub-prime loan and the result is disaster. It doesn't take a huge amount sub-prime defaults to take down a lender and reflect massive losses for everyone who bought the derivative because only a portion of the underlying assets in this case sub-prime mortgages have failed.

 

Good summation.

This stimulus plan has a hodgepodge of seemingly questionable spending projects in it because those are the things the government can throw money at right now. The transfusion of money into any vein will flow to the body country's economy (probably to a lot of Republicans). Big infrastructure projects take more time to organize, years, and we just couldn't wait. But there definitely will be another stimulus package in our future. One that will have the power grids, renewable energy programs, water projects, public service programs, broadband type of projects that will (could?) actually promote GDP.

 

I agree with you that there will be additional stimulus measures, whether they are called "stimulus" or not.

However, the things you list are very much included in the current bill.

 

Here is the list of crap included in the stimulus bill. I think anyone that votes for the stimulis without cutting out the pork is doing a disservice to the American public. I think the Republicans are correct in wanting to save Billions by cutting some of this out.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/02/gop.stimulus.worries/index.html

Monday, House Republican leaders put out a list of what they call wasteful provisions in the Senate version of the nearly $900 billion stimulus bill that is being debated:


The Senate is currently the nearly $900 billion economic stimulus bill.

• $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.

• A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.

• $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.

• $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).

• $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.

• $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.

• $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.

• $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.

• $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.

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• $125 million for the Washington sewer system.

• $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.

• $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.

• $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."

• $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.

• $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.

• $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

• $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.

• $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.

• $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.

• $500 million for state and local fire stations.

• $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.

• $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.

• $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.

• $412 million for CDC buildings and property.

• $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.

• $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.

• $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.

• $850 million for Amtrak.

• $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.

• $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.

• $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.

• $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.

 

Here is the list of crap included in the stimulus bill. I think anyone that votes for the stimulis without cutting out the pork is doing a disservice to the American public. I think the Republicans are correct in wanting to save Billions by cutting some of this out.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/02/gop.stimulus.worries/index.html

Monday, House Republican leaders put out a list of what they call wasteful provisions in the Senate version of the nearly $900 billion stimulus bill that is being debated:


The Senate is currently the nearly $900 billion economic stimulus bill.

• $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.

• A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.

• $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.

• $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).

• $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.

• $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.

• $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.

• $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.

• $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.

• $125 million for the Washington sewer system.

• $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.

• $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.

• $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."

• $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.

• $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.

• $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

• $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.

• $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.

• $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.

• $500 million for state and local fire stations.

• $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.

• $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.

• $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.

• $412 million for CDC buildings and property.

• $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.

• $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.

• $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.

• $850 million for Amtrak.

• $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.

• $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.

• $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.

• $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.

 

Sorry fo the doulbe post...this Dell Sucks.

 

Some of this is crap (like the Homeland Security furniture), but much of this is the very definition of infrastructure stimulus, no?

• $88 million for the Coast Guard...e basic infrastructure / efficiency projects?

 

Agreed, less the unnecessary and useless DHS (cancel that whole department, already - please!), the only real "pork" I see there is the hollywood film money.

Generically, I'm against the stimulus package. But these don't seem terribly good examples of waste per say.