What I'm saying is rarely do coaches change their dna, especially coaches that have won alot of games. Adelman started tinkering with yao at the high post last year and alot of people were wondering what the hell was he doing. Now playing without yao for a entire year and having some success, i doubt he goes back to the old model he had before. Do i think yao will get touches in the post? Yes, but I don't think its going to be the old recipe. I think its going to be quick look, then move on. Also the quicker pace at which the rockets play at is going to be a factor. I do agree and have stated that everyone benefits from having yao clog the lane on defense and everyone will again funnel thier guys towards yao, but coming off the injury, we might be doing yao a disservice. He might become more foul prone and spend more time on the bench.
Battier's defense is worse than it was last year. He has been regressing fast ever since that surgery in 2008.
Let me introduce the Battier worshipers to Michael Cooper: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/coopemi01.html 3rd round pick (60th overall), DPOY in 1986-87, 8 time all-NBA 1st or 2nd team on defense, and 5 time NBA world champion. Players like Battier are a dime a dozen. The most recent example is a guy like Arron Afflalo on the Nuggets. Denver acquired him in a minor trade, he's playing about 25 mpg in a Battier like role for his team, making a little over $1 million, and is giving you over 8 ppg on over 42% shooting from the 3 pt line while guarding guys like Kobe. Don't worry guys, when Battier is gone, he won't be missed.
What position? The position you "thought" I had? Why is it that when I repeatedly correct your misrepresentations on my position, you do not acknowledge it? That reeks of dishonesty. Let me repeat my position for you, as it appears it still has not registered: "I wrote that if you are going to say one player is definitively better than another player at something, you should be willing to define your criteria and not reject others attempts to validate the claim through available evidence." I do not demand every opinion, strong or weak, to be accompanied by a bunch of data. I believe people should be willing to explain their reasoning on how they arrived at their opinion. And if someone else challenges their opinion with data (e.g., a secret, trusted team survey that shows Battier does not have the respect of the majority of his teammates), then I would expect them to acknowledge it and reconsider their original position. And, in closing, if you think I'm a "hypocrite" because I do not comb through every thread and demand people back up their opinions, well ... that reeks of stupidity.
I'll let you have the last word if you want, but I've once again communicated my point effectively. I'm going to go real slow for you: YOU said that intangibles like leadership can be measured. People in this thread are saying that he's THE leader of this team and he's THE heart and soul of the Rockets. That means he's DEFINITIVELY a better leader than anybody else on this team and has the MOST heart and soul. But, YOU haven't asked them to provide any statistical evidence to support their claims. Now you're saying that we should challenge that position with data, but what you don't understand is that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If they can't backup their claim with evidence, then the claims are baseless. Now, towards the end of the post I quoted above, you're trying to modify you're position in order to not look like a hypocrite. I guess consistency isn't your thing. Sounds like you're doing a flip flop here, because you know that nobody can provide any statistical data to backup claims regarding Battier being the definitive "leader and heart and soul" of this team. I think I've proven my point.
The point is you're still taking the cop out. Once again, you're just deferring to Morey's lack of trading and trying to say that's evidence that Battier isn't in decline - that. doesn't. make. sense. I love Morey, and I'm generally a follower in the "In Morey we trust" motto. That doesn't mean he doesn't make mistakes, nor does it mean we should never second guess the man. The Battier trade, GREAT trade for the then-Rockets - it gave us the best chance to win at the time. The now Rockets? Would you rather have Gay or Battier for the present day Rockets? Even for next year's Rockets? I can't help you if you still think Battier. Fans tend to get caught up in the 'who won the trade' debate, but it isn't that simple; with the Rockets making that trade, they win in the first year and a few years after; but once Battier starts declining and the rookie they traded begins to improve, the "winnner" shifts from the Rockets to the Grizzlies. Morey knew that, and I don't blame him for the trade - Battier gave us a better chance at a championship than Gay would have. (I know, I know.. the Rockets wanted Sefalosha and not Gay; but you don't know that MOREY wanted Sefalosha, as Dawson was still the GM, so it's hard to compare who Morey would've drafted vs. Dawson.) You're putting complete faith in Morey and saying that if he doesn't do something it's because he knows better than me - that just simply isn't true. If it was, Joey Dorsey would be beasting right about now - and he's not. Why? Because Morey is damn good, but he isn't perfect.. nobody is. Exactly what does Battier do offensively that allows our team to be better offensively? Spot up for three? So does Steve Novak, but he isn't exactly considered a game changer. Battier is a decent three point shooter, but he isn't anyone you game plan around to say "DON'T LEAVE HIM OPEN!". There is zero evidence that Battier enables players to be better offensively - his contributions to the Rockets have been strictly defensively with the occasional spot up three. He brings nothing to the table outside of his spot up shooting, which isn't that great as is. You say lots of ELITE NBA players aren't as good as they once were - I can only assume you didn't mean to include Battier. Battier has never been considered an "elite NBA player", nor should he have ever been. He was a good defensive player, earning all defensive second team in two consecutive years, but he was never considered elite. But you're right - the elite NBA players are still effective because they find other ways to contribute when their athleticism declines (Kobe going to the post up game); Battier has added nothing to his game since joining the Rockets. He's still a spot up shooter with no handles, just like he was when he first joined the Rockets. This is a fair point that I'll concede, although I do think last year Battier wasn't as good of a defender as year's past. Either way, I suppose neither of us really knows -- but I do know he's 31 now and not getting any younger. Again, another cop out by you. You're essentially arguing that Morey's lack of trading Shane means that he doesn't think that he's declining. I love logic - I just wish you would use some. Arguing that he isn't declining because he hasn't been traded is about as illogical as you can get - sorry. The present day Rockets are set at PG (Brooks), SF (Ariza), PF (Scola/Landry) and C (Yao); AKA we need a SG. If we trade McGrady for a SG, do you think Ariza or Battier comes off the bench? I'm thinking Battier. As I said in the previous post, you don't trade Battier for the sake of trading him. Personally, I would look to move him for youth that better fits our need - but it takes two to tango. Just because you aren't hearing Battier's name in the rumor column doesn't mean Morey wouldn't trade him - again, neither of us know what Morey is thinking. I would think any valuable McGrady trade would include one of our younger assets, but you don't hear about them on the trading block either. In other words, just because you don't hear about them doesn't mean they aren't available. You could make the argument that his contributions are "overlooked" just as well as you could make the argument that Battier is overvalued. The Rockets were 51-31 in the 04-05 season. 05-06 we were hit hard by injuries and ended up with the 8th pick in the draft - which we traded for Battier. In 06-07 we were 52-30 -- Battier helped us be a whole game better than we were before him. Obviously there are a lot more moving parts, but essentially the Rockets were a damn good team before Battier and still a good team after him -- he didn't exactly put us over the top. I can't evaluate how he's slipped by watching him? He's not as quick as he once was, and the quicker NBA players blow past him now. That didn't used to be the case, but now he just can't keep up with the quicker players - I don't need advanced statistics to tell me he's lost a step, I can see it with my own eyes. I don't know what Morey thinks of Shane, but I think he's on the decline and should be moved. That is in no way a criticism of Morey - he could very well move Battier tomorrow and you would look foolish. Neither of us knows what he's thinking, which is half the fun of this BBS -- to guess the next step and speculate what we should do. You seem perfectly content to blindly follow and agree with whatever Morey does. I enjoy guessing the next step and speculating on how to best build the team -- that isn't criticism or questioning management, it's just my opinion on what should happen next. And for all we know, it could still happen. I would be questioning Morey's decision making if I blasted him for a trade or for turning down a trade. The fact is, neither you nor I have any idea what he's been offered for Battier, if anything, so it would be ridiculous for me to question his decision to not trade him. I'm merely stating my opinion that we SHOULD trade him (assuming we get back value and not trading for the sake of trading), not criticizing Morey for NOT trading him - there is a difference. Sidenote: You have been one of my favorite posters and I respect your opinion. That said, don't lower yourself to arguing with leebigez. If he thinks Yao will reduced to a "quick look" option, there is no saving him. I agree with what you said about Yao next year, but I think Ariza can fill what Shane's role was and some -- we need to use Shane to fill more holes. Shane/Ariza are redundant IMO, and I'd rather have the younger version of the two.
I think where you come down on Battier isn't so much how he's playing, but rather whether you think his play is declining, or that this is just a hiccup from which he'll return to form. There should be no doubt on Battier's defensive ability before this season. Pretty much any crunched numbers will show that he has been an AWESOME, AWESOME defender. He might have had some slowdowns here and there injury-related. But the man overall deserves to be among the very best perimeter defenders in the entire game. Now, it's pretty clear that he hasn't played up to par this season. Whether that's injury-related, general skills decline, playing without Yao/Deke, whatever. That also isn't in question. So we have a player who has played at a lower level this year than previous years. But is this an aberration? Or is he just not as good as he used to be. I can't imagine that 40 games this year is more indicative of Battier's play than the 8 years before. So I will withhold my judgment for at least the end of the season.
Longtime Fan, when i say quick look, i mean they will try to get the ball in to yao, but they won't run the shot clock down, re-post after re-post trying to get him the ball aymore. They will look at yao and if he has good position, they wil pass t to him, if not, they will swing and motion to another player/players. The dayof the shot clock running down trying to get yao the ball are dead. Brooks has shown that he can get a good shot with yao and judging from adelmans past, he likes the high pick penetration from guards. Those cross screens they used to try to get yao free aren't going to be used as much either i think. They will use them on soemtimes, but they won't always start the offense like that the way they have in the past.
Right now, Battier's most valuable asset is his character and presence in the locker room...he's a nice guy that everyone likes, and is similar to the dude who posts a really well executed 'Stay optimistic' thread in the GARM after a really bad loss. No ego, just wants to keep everyone happy...however, he's really declining as a player...but we need his locker room presence more than ever with such a young and inconsistent core. I absolutely hated Battier's game before, but this season I've come to accept it since I believe he does more good than harm to this team. I think this team would've imploded already without Battier (although, it tooks like the team is suffering from low morale lately...might still implode. But Battier will have caused it to happen later than earlier)
Except for the fact that this is a thread derailment, I don't want the last word. I want you to stop misrepresenting my position, slinking away from threads, and then cropping up elsewhere to call me a hypocrite. I don't demand people to backup every claim they make, because I don't care enough about every claim they make. I would have to post 500+ times a day if I did that. Its laughable that you expect me to take on such a role. If there's a topic that interests me or that I have a strong opinion on, and someone makes a claim that I'd like them to explain further, I might press them on it. But People are free to back up their positions to whatever extent they choose. I'll just not take the ones that are based on flimsy reasoning/evidence very seriously. People have said Kobe is the most clutch player in the league on many occasions. I don't make it a point to challenge that expressed view every time I read it. In your thread, there was a particular claim which I disagreed with -- stats should not be used to measure clutch ability. I disagree with that position especially when its from people that are expressing strong opinions on one player's abilities in relation to another's. That is where my argument stemmed from. Just because I don't demand people to use stats, that doesn't mean I accept the view that stats are worthless. Equivalently, just because I think stats have value, that does not mean I demand people to accompany every claim with stats. You've invented a different position, applied it to me, and you're using it to levy the hypocrisy charge. You've "proven" your point with what? Misstating my position while refusing to actually quote me, ignoring my explanation of my position, and maintaining that I'm flip-flopping when I restate my actual position because I'm not adhering the position you made up for me? That's quite a "proof" there, Kwame. Well done.
Excellent post ROXTXIA. I'm afraid it's too late to trade Battier now. His trade value has dropped a LOT. Not that it was high to begin with.
I think Battier's length gets undervalued. Battier is 5'-11" on offense, on defense he's still a 6'-8" wing player. For as much a stay-at-home help defender as Battier is, he routinely gets more blocks than Ariza. Though Ariza can get a steal and take it to the other end for an easy score. Just dont want it to be like Battier just maintains his base defense position and doesnt do any "active" defense. Agree. Which is part why I think Ariza was coveted. Ability to cause a turnover and get an easy transition bucket out of it. Like stripping the ball in football, since its too hard to stop anyone anymore have to make it a turnovers game. With all the offense going on however, there is still only 1 ball to go around. And other things still need to get done on the court that help win games outside of scoring.
Shroopy, I really like what you had to say here. I've been puzzled as to why Battier and Ariza are left together as starters, and I guess that's why; Adelman trying to really lock down defense in every aspect he can by utilizing both players. I mean, I understood that they were both defensive players, but couldn't quite see what made it attractive to have them both start. (Personally, still don't as I think it's a fail, but I see now why the experiment was done)
Here's the simplest explanation that I can give: - Battier's contributions don't show up in the stats sheet. To most people other than a statistician like Morey, they are almost invisible. - Based on Morey's adjusted plus/minus, Battier contributes to winning more than most any player. The article mentions Battier's career +6 which puts him at the same contribution level as Carmello, Vince Carter and McGrady. At the time of that article his season +/- was at +10 which put him in Dwight Howard, Kevin Garnett territory. So, as far as Morey's contribution to winning, Battier was and possibly is still elite. I think that we can both agree on those two things. So, if the average guy like me can't measure Battier's contribution, then how do you expect me to determine if his contribution has slipped? If I/we don't have the knowledge to measure his contribution in the first place, the please tell me how you expect to measure any variance for this year? If refusing to make assumptions based on something that I don't understand is a cop-out, then ok it's a cop out. There's simply too many unkowns and variables there to make a call. Has Battier lost a step? I don't know. Far as I know guys could have done the same thing in past years, but didn't because they'd be running directly into a 7'6" wall. Is Battier attempting to play guys differently this year as what he's done in past years? Again, I don't know. What I do know is that Morey's stats have shown that success is no based on all of the parts meshing together and must be measured that way. What is a major contribution for one group, might not be as imortant for another. Until you see Yao back in there, then it's a test of like items. Even then only a guy like Morey will be able to judge the contribution level of each player. To guys like us, he'll still be a guy with no stats. Can you make the argument that Battier is overvalued? Of course because you just did. The problem is that there's very little supporting evidence behind that argument. I doubt that you'll find a single NBA statistitian that would call Battier overvalued. In fact, Battier is the poster boy for the undervalued player, we all know that. You can make the argument for most anything but that doesn't make your argument creditable. Morey, Lewis and other credible experts who have done tons of research are on record saying that Battier is a huge contributor. You can make the argument that Battier is overvalued, but compared to their findings your argument wouldn't carry much weight. Does that make more sense. I don't know enough to quantify Battier's contribution. Therefore, I don't know enough to quantify any change in his contribution. Morey does understand his contribution and Morey is a smart guy. If Battier's contribution has slipped and he is indeed overvalued, then a smart guy like Morey will sell him at a high value to some of those teams that overvalue him. If he determines that he's still a great contributor and is undervalued, then he'll keep him. I can't tell you which it is, but I'm confident that a smart guy like Morey will make the correct decision.
Coaches don't change to suit their personel? So after coaching the Showtime Lakers to titles, Pat Reilly didn't change his style to coach the '80's Knicks? The Lakers were probably the best running team of all time and the Knicks were the slowest, most physical, half court team of their era. Did Adelman's Rip City Blazers teams play like Adelman's Golden State teams? Did his Sactown teams play like either of those? Did Adelman's Rocket teams with Yao play like any of Adelman's other teams? Does this year's Rockets play like last year's Rockets? Did Mike Fratello's Atlanta Hawks teams with Dominique Wilkens play the same way that as the half court nightmare that Fratello had in Cleveland? Of course not. Fratello changed because he no longer had athletes like Dominique, Willis and Rivers. Good coaches have changed their style to fit the talent that they have. Adelman himself has changed his style muliple times.
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When I think of length, I generally think of a player with longer arms who can play bigger than they are.. players with a big wingspan. http://www.draftexpress.com/article/DX-MeasurementsCombine-Database-Expanded-Significantly-2930/ Ariza's wingspan is 7'2 with a 8'11 standing reach (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Trevor-Ariza-1527/) - so I think I would consider him to be longer than Battier. From the article I just dug up on Shane, it seems to imply that he is on the shorter side of wingspan/standing reach -- I have no idea what the average is though. I think you're sorely mistaken if you don't think Yao is still the cornerstone of this franchise. That may change if we landed a player like Bosh, but outside of that nobody is going to take away Yao's shots. We WILL go to Yao when we need a bucket down the stretch - we WILL go to him as often as we can. There's just no reason not to.. he's one of the most efficient players in the NBA. If Yao is unable to fully recover from this surgery, then you may be right. But without proof that that's the case, I don't think you can say that Yao will just be a "quick look". The Big Fella led us to the second round, and who knows what would've happened if he hadn't gotten hurt. I think next year's Rockets will look to run more, whether Yao grabs the board and outlets or not, I can see Brooks/Ariza filling the wings looking for the easy transition points. The only difference is if it's not there, we can set it up and throw it in to our big guy. Adelman is too smart to ignore Yao to let Ariza come off a PnR and try to create -- that would be a disaster. The ball needs to go through Yao, and everyone works off him.. not vice versa. I think the basic nuts and bolts of the argument is that neither of us have hard data to support our positions - I'm merely stating observations from watching Shane play, whereas you're assuming he's still filling up the non-stat sheet as he was when the article is written. In the end, nobody knows which one of us is right. But I think you would also agree that at 31, Battier isn't getting any younger - it's only natural for a player to decline once they get to his age. I guess my reasoning in wanting to trade Shane is more about the future. I see Battier coming off the bench if the Rockets can ever get a legitimate two or if Budinger develops enough before next year. I just don't want to be stuck with a 7 million dollar bench player who can't give us much offensively and is declining defensively (I know, my position not yours, I'm just giving my perspective on why I feel we should look to trade him) -- I think we could bring in a lot better options with that seven million. With all that said, our argument also depends on who we could really get for Battier. If all we're offered is scrubs, then yes, we should keep Shane for lack of better options. I was assuming he had a market, but I also know Morey probably values him higher than any other GM, which would make trading him hard. Either way, it's been a good discussion - I don't think we'll get much more out of it by going back and forth. Neither of us have hard data to support our positions, so as Rockets fans let's just hope I'm wrong and Shane helps us win it all next year.
We talk about the most dominant offensive center in the league, some respect. As for Shane, it's not a cliche, it's not about in Morey we trust, he's trully very valuable. And anybody can appreciate it, it's about being observant and pay some attention. I don't think he's in decline. ROLES and offensive chemistry. It's not that you don't need 5 scorers, is that it's detrimental in several fronts to play with 5 scorers.
