Do you really believe that what you see is more accurate than people like Morey who have a whole trained staff observe and record (and if they miss something they can always rewind and watch in slo-mo) exactly the things that they want to measure every second of every game, and then evaluate what a player is contributing to winning, with the aid of some expensive computing power?
Personally I'm on the fence regarding this subject, but I think that you're missing the point. Most people acknowledge that he was exceptional last season, when this article was written. I think that the point is that he has dropped off considerably this season. I know that he's great for young players, particularly Buddinger, but I have to admit that I do see a considerably decline from last season.
I thought your position was that you can't make a claim such as so and so is definitively this or that without providing statistical evidence and quantifying the claims. Therefore, if people are saying that Battier is the "team leader" and "heart and soul" of the Rockets, I would expect you to ask for statistical evidence unless you're flip flopping on us.
I wrote that if you are going to say one player is definitively better than another player at something, you should be willing to define your criteria and not reject others attempts to validate the claim through available evidence. I did not say one has an obligation to back up every strong opinion with a corresponding stat. You are free to quote me from the other thread if you think that's what I said.
Let's stop pretending that Shane's offensive results are the worst on the team. Yes, we don't want him dribbling the ball. Yes, he can't create offense. But the .399 FG% is not much of an indicator of his shooting, given what shots he takes. Battier is 4th of the Rockets' rotation players in effective FG%, a much more telling stat than raw percentage; he's behind only Landry and Scola and basically equivalent to Brooks. Even when you use true shooting percentage, accounting for him not getting to the line much, he's still fourth, ahead of Andersen, Ariza, Hayes, and even golden boy Lowry. So let's not pretend the guy is the worst offensive player ever. He scores points when he takes shots. He's in decline, yes, but still an asset, and still makes a positive impact on the team.
How can durvasa provide stats to back up something as hard to quantify as that? aelliott has provided quotes about Morey's astonishment at just how effective Battier really was once he was able to really dig into his impact on games. Do you dismiss Morey? aelliott? Good arguments can be made pro and con Battier and how he fits on this team, now and in the future, but one doesn't have to be absurd arguing about it, either way. Some of us, me included, love what Battier brings to a club this young, that desperately needs his kind of leadership, even putting aside his qualities on the court. Having said that, should the right deal come along and he's needed in a trade for a crucial piece, I'm OK with him going. I feel the same way about Scola, a player I'm a huge fan of. I guess I just don't get why it has to be all one way or another, why people have to either "hate" a player or love him, no matter what. We see so much of that here that it's rediculous. I save my "hate" for those who deserve it, like almost everyone who plays for the Jazz. The bottom line, though, is what's good for the Rockets. The team. I think we have an excellent guy in Morey as well as an excellent coach, Adelman, who I would think exerts at least some influence on personel decisions. We can beat these subjects to death, it's what seems to be the operative gig around here, but we can also have at least a little faith in those two. Who knows... maybe some of us will find the time to enjoy an amazing season. I certainly am.
You said that intangibles like leadership can be quantified. People in this thread are saying that he's THE leader of this team and he's THE heart and soul of the Rockets. That sounds pretty definitive to me. Yet, you've not asked them for one shred of statistical evidence to backup these claims. I guess you're not going to be consistent and hold the same position across the board. That reeks of hypocrisy. You need to ask him, because he's the one that feels intangibles like leadership can be quantitatively measured.
Deckard, Scola does little things too and he produces when given the chance at a consistent level. He's not a athletic freak nor is he the tallest pf in the league, is it asking too much for shane to do the same? I mean, how many times do you see shane being guarded by a 6 ft pg? Last night, whenever q or wade had small guys on them, it was a mismatch. I'm not saying shane should be wade,lebron, or kobe, but can we at least get ronnie brewer,mario elie, or robert horry?
Speaking of statistics, if durvasa or anyone can provide some numbers to valid or shoot down the claim that Battier is declining on DEFENSE, it would be greatly appreciated. We all know that his shooting percentage is worse this season, which may or may not be due to his physical decline. Some people have the opinion, which I don't share, that his defense is also not as good. Is there any hard facts to show one way or the other?
One minute he's lockdown, the next its about team defense. It has always been about team defense and funneling everything towards yao. No yao, the defense sux, battier gets exposed. Its not his fault, its the way its always been. The rockets were a great defense before shane. There is a stat that says that and its easy to find. Chances are, yao comes back,battier gone, and the rockets would be a top 5 defense again. Maxwell was the jordan stopper until he left houston and went to philly. In philly, jordan abused him left and right. Maxwell didn't all of a sudden become a poor defender, he just lost the all time shot blocker behind him.
here's a crazy idea, why not provide some evidence that battier is NOT the leader or heart and soul of this team? Hmm..... I just noticed there's a "C" next to Shane battier and Chuck Hayes' names...can anyone please explain what that means, for us slower folks? Humm, maybe this here link can be helpful: .http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/6693987.html “See now, he's just being humble,” Budinger said. “He deserves to be captain.” “You deserve it,” Budinger told Battier. “You're always the one who talks in huddles. You're the most vocal on the team. If there was an official vote, you'd have gotten it anyway.” There is little doubt Battier is in many ways a leader. Late in the 2007-08 season, when speaking of the role of the point guard to direct a team, Rafer Alston said there is an exception to that. “The timeouts,” he said, “are Shane's.”
You just made a key point: It's always been about funneling everything towards Yao. Battier's role is based on his ability to fit in and complement Yao. It's certainly not going to be the same when Yao is out of the lineup. Morey's recent interviews have been very clear that all personel moves will be made to build for next year when Yao returns. The Rockets aren't going to make any moves just to make us better this season. It doesn't really matter if Battier is less effective without Yao. His role is to play with Yao and this year really doesn't matter. One of the things that Morey's statstics show is which combination of players is effective together. Battier's importance without Yao is secondary to how he plays with Yao. If we were only focusing on trying to win as many games as possible this year then maybe things are different but that's simply not the team's focus. It's all about building the team for once Yao is back. The fact of the matter is that the NBA is an offensive league. Scorers are tremedously talented and the rules favor offense. Who do you consider a lock down defender? In today's game there simply isn't a player who can consistently shutdown the Wades, LeBrons and Kobes of the world. Best you can do is to make them work more to get their points. Regardless of who you are, when those guys are on their game they will get their points. Show me a defender that can consistently shut those guys down and never allows big games. It just doesn't happen.
Rafer was the so called leader too. It would be nice if the leader would play well on the road sometimes :grin:
By the same token, we don't know how yao will come back and i don't think adelman is going to revert back to playing dump down and stand around. Moving and cutting around yao isn't such a good idea for him. He's a slow thinker and doesn't read angles well. Now we can speculate and talk about how much better this team will be next year, but how will yao change the offense for the better? It might get better or it might get jumbled. If the only way shane plays well is with yao in his usual role, what happens if yao's role is changed?
True, and I know Battier probably plays smart and increases his offensive output only when the matchup advantages are there. But I also remember in the Portland playoff series, Houston would not have won the tightly contested Games 3 and 4 without Battier being aggressive, looking to drive to the basket when he had the chance. It seemed uncharacteristic of him but it gave us the 16 and 14 points that was needed for the win. Both JVG and Adelman, and even Morey IIRC, have said they wanted Battier to look more for his shots, and I have to agree.
But yet you were defending him by guaranteeing he will resign here for 10 mil. a year coming off of knee surgery. According to your inside sources of course. I'm pretty sure you made that prediction when there was still a little light in the tunnel. Now that the tunnel is pitch dark it's natural to give up fighting a lost cause. Even though you say you don't guarantee anything, at the time you were pretty adamant about him resigning here. The one thing that's for sure, it's that you talk a good game. Everyone has their own opinion and I respect that. At the end of the day we cheer for the same team. You alright with me. Well it's my turn for a beer run before it's too late.
lmao, what the hell is pfft? I've never used that and don't know what it stands for. I see the backstabber is at work again. DD, u still my man 100 grand.
Do you really think that we won't post Yao up next season? You're telling me that a team with the most statistically minded GM in the league won't go to our highest percentage weapon on a regular basis? There's absolutely no reason that they can't move the ball with Yao in the game. The fact is that Yao in the paint is still a better option than anything else we have. Just because Yao is going to post up, it doesn't mean that he has to be a Jabbar and play point center on every possession. Let's face it, one of the big complaints in the past was that Yao got so few touches. He's proven that he can score points on very few shots, so why do I all of a sudden have to have him handle the ball the majority of the time. Yao will still get his touches, but there's still plenty to go around for others. How about defensively? Is Yao still not going to shutdown the lane as he has in the past? He's still 7'6", right? So, if Battier forces a player to the middle, they won't have a more difficult time than they currently do? I realize that there's alot of people who think that when Yao comes back that he's going to be some type of glorified role player, but I don't believe that for a minute. The team is going to be built around Yao and it's going to feature Yao. He's such a dominant force and he forces teams to distort their defense to stop him. That makes life for the other 4 teammates on the floor easier. Additionally, I believe that the players that they surround Yao with will be players that fit well with his game. As long as Battier is a good fit with the Rockets team that includes Yao, then I think that he'll be here unless we get an overwhelming trade offer.
