No offense at all intended, because it's perfectly legitimate to think Russell was the better center because he won more titles or fit in better with the team, etc., but let me clarify something here... Russell could not stop Wilt. I'm not gonna find the article now, but Hubie Brown will attest to this as well: Russell couldn't stop him. Ever. No one could. However, the Celtics got the win because Russell had a vastly superior team around him for the majority of his career. Bad comparison, but to put it in modern terms: think about a rich man's Ben Wallace (6'9 245 to Russell 6'9, 220) being asked to "stop" Shaq (7'1, 360 to Wilt's 7'1, 290 or so in his prime). Oh, and give Shaq twice the hops and ten times the talent. Could old Benny give him a bad day? Sure! Stop him? Hell no! It was never close. Just wanted to clarify that. Like I said, it's fine to think Russell was more valuable (I disagree), but Wilt did stupid stuff like swat shots out of bounds instead of deflecting them to teammates like Russell, so the justifications are there.
Well I don't think you can compare players from different generations. You just go with how dominant they were at their time. 1. Wilt 2. Jabbar 3. Shaq 4. Hakeem 5. Russell But in terms of Yao, I can definitely see him up here if he can win a couple of championships. In terms of skills, abilities, offensive repertoire and defensive prescence he definitely has all the ingredients. But what really separates the good players from the great players is the ability to carry a team to a championship. Whether Yao has that ability, remains to be seen. I will say that it will be a joy to watch him grow and mature. His game has improved so much over the past two years. It's been really great watching him operate offensively. In fact I would say that he has the sweetest looking hook in the league (Except when he's on the right edge near the baseline. He never seems to make those shots). He's got the coordination to perform any lowpost move in the game, and he's got the ethic to learn them. Just the other day he had the ball on the low block, took a big step into the lane, then fired up a jump shot. That is absolutely a vintage Ewing maneuver. (just goes to show that Ewing is teaching Yao something.) And he's been facing up and taking guys off the dribble some more as of late. Couple all of that with is good shooting touch and range out to 20, then I'm sure he can stack up offensively. And defensively, he's already a huge prescence. And if only the coaching staff would tell him to put more emphasis on going after the ball and less on boxing out his man, he could be a dominant rebounder too. Cause when the shot goes up, Yao always looks to box out first. He concentrates so much on his man, that he isn't even looking up at the shot. So when he finally turns around, he's either out of position or the ball has come down so much that Yao can't use his natural height and reach advantages to grab the board over the other players. So often times it catches him by surprise or it gets poked away. Am I the only one seeing this, and if not then why aren't the coaches doing anything about it? Will his stamina ever allow him to carry the team, and will he develop the selfish mentality to fight through the double teams when the team really needs a bucket. All of these questions will be answered in the next dozen or so years. Whatever the answers are, I'll enjoy watching the process.
I admit I personally give the edge to Kareem, but I disagree that you have to be a Houston homer to believe Hakeem was better. Think about their games: I think for the most part we can agree Kareem was the better rebounder. Defensively both were masterful shotblockers, Hakeem being a little more off-the-ball than Kareem. Then consider that with Hakeem around, your dribble wasn't any safer than your shot. This clearly was not true of Kareem. Kareem was bigger, so he was more of a presence. Offensively Kareem had the hook, obviously, and he could score a lot of other ways as well. However, I give the edge on pure jump-shooting to Hakeem, and most people agree that he had the greatest array of post-moves ever. Kareem had more power game. Kareem clearly gets the nod for longevity. And while he was clearly extremely dominant at his peak, I think Hakeem's peak was just a tad higher. I mean, he was scary, scary good in the mid-90s. Looking at all those pros and cons, I'm sorry, but I don't think it's ridiculous that someone outside Houston could give the nod to Hakeem.
SInce you said mid-nineties was Hakeem's peak (95 was his highest scoring year) I will use 1994-95 to represent Hakeem's prime and 71-72 for Kareem PPG Hakeem 27.8 Kareem 34.8 RPG Hakeem 10.8 (his highest season average was 14 in 89-90) Kareem 16.6 (his highest average was 16.9 in 75-76) APG Hakeem 3.5 Kareem 4.6 (would later average 5.4) BPG Hakeem 3.36 (Hakeem peaked at 4.59 BPG) Kareem they didn't keep this stat in 71-72, the first year they tracked blocks was 73-74 when he averaged 3.49 per game (he peaked at only 4.12 though it is impossible to know what his averages were his first four years) SPG Hakeem 1.85 his peak here was 2.6 Kareem the first year this stat was kept he had 1.38 peaking at 1.66 TOPG Hakeem 3.29 (his lowest was 1.4) Kareem the first year this stat was kept he had 3.35 (lowest was 1.28) FG% Hakeem .517 peaking at .538 as a rookie Kareem .574 peaking at .604 in his 11th season So, in their respective primes (or using the first year a stat became available in some cases for Kareem) Hakeem got 0.19 more steals per game and 0.06 fewer turnovers per game. Kareem had 7 more points, 5.8 more rebounds, 1.1 more assists and 0.13 more blocks per game, while shooting a significantly better FG%. The best that can be said for Hakeem in relation to Kareem is that picking and choosing from different seasons, he had a better single season average in blocks, while being better throughout his career in steals. Kareem had a better peak year, had better career averages in most categories (steals and blocks being the exceptions) and had by far the better accumulated totals due to his longevity (which actually hurt his averages putting up 10 points and 4 rebounds at the end). Given all of that, I stand by my original statement that only a Houston homer would rank Hakeem above Kareem.
Speaking of great centers, I was surprised to learn recently that Artis Gilmore is not in the Hall of Fame. He was FAR better than Robert Parish and Dave Cowens, who are not only in the HOF but were chosen among the "50 Greatest Ever." It helps a lot if you played most of your career in Boston.
Shaq could the No.1 easily. There's no way a guy like Russel can guard him. But he doesn't try hard enough, wayyy underachieved.
Hakeem. No contest. No offense to you historians, but leave those centers that didn't have to play against illegal defenses, 3 second calls, and for the most part athletic individuals on a consistant basis. For one second, can people look at more than just numbers? Non of the centers mentioned had either the basketball SKILLS or athleticism Hakeem pocessed. No disrespect to Jerry West, but I sure as hell wouldn't take him over Jordan.
Almost 23 rebounds for a lifetime average? He averaged over 50 points a game at .613% one year. No question - Wilt. Better than Jordan, better than Bird, better than Magic...simply the best nba player ever.
This poll was set up to be "an experiment in cluelessness", so the thread starter actually wanted to trap the YOFs to vote for Yao... Luckily, the knowledgeable posters of this board have put forth stats and info of the past greats and have made some very vivid comparisons. These are really great read. I voted for Kareem. "You have forgotten that I too am not afraid to die." He has to be the greatest center to ever appear in a Martial Arts movie. SS999
Yeah, well it helps when the lane is only 4 feet wide and his most skilled defender at the time was a 6'9" Bill Russell. Theres no way Wilt would dominate today like he did back in the stone age of basketball, although he did thoroughly dominate back then.
There are a ton of HOFers from that era that you could say that about. Thats why its unfair to compare players across eras. They played and trained to face that era's competition, not this era's. BTW, there were alot more solid centers/defenders in that era than you think there were. Nate Thurmond (6'11'' 235 lbs) - HOFer Walt Bellamy (6'11'' 245 lbs) - HOFer Willis Reed (6'10'' 240) - HOFer That doesn't even include centers that Wilt faces later in his career like Kareem, Unseld, Lanier, etc (all HOFers).
No 3 seconds? 4 foot wide lane? Yeah, Wilt had those advantages... for ONE YEAR. Then the league changed both those rules in an attempt to stop Wilt from dominating so much. It didn't work. Skills? Wilt played point guard for the Globetrotters, and his is the only jersey they have retired. He's the only non-guard ever to lead the league in assists. Athleticism? In his college days when he was 240 pounds, Wilt could run faster and jump higher than Michael Jordan. Granted, he couldn't quite reach those numbers when he was 300 pounds, but he was still DAMN athletic. And you gotta remember, back then there were only 8 or 10 teams. There may not have been a lot of great centers Wilt had to play against, but the ones there were he saw A LOT. Oh, and codell... you forgot Walter Dukes.
You guys are forgetting about George Mikan. They raised the basket to 10 feet because of him, now that's domination when you physically change the dimensions of the game
An impressive tidbit of information about Wilt, is that in all of his dominance of the league, he never once fouled out of a game.
To answer the poll question, I put Wilt and Kareem on top. If you had asked me who was the best in their prime, it is Dream hands down. For those 2-3 seasons, I don't believe there is any Center in league history who could've carried a team to 2 titles with guys like Kenny Smith, Drexler/Maxwell, Elie/Horry, OT/Chucky Brown as a supporting cast (no disrespect to them). Over the span of their careers, Wilt and Kareem have the edge. I just believe that Hakeem peaked at a higher level than both of them.
I guess you missed the post where I caompared Hakeem and Kareem in their primes and Kareem was far superior.
What Wilt did was ridiculous. Averaging over 50 points a game at .613 shooting percentage? You want to talk dominance? How about being the biggest, fastest, and strongest player in the league? Or scoring 100 points in a game? To get an accurate picture of what Wilt was in his day, imagine Yao Ming. Now give him Shaq's strength and quickness. Let him run the floor like James Posey. Give him a 40 inch vertical. Now take his FT% down to 50%. Oh, I almost forgot. Have him be able and willing to play 48 minutes a game. That is the equivalent of what teams had to face. You cannot defend a player like that. Can you prevent him from getting post position? No. Can you front him? Hell no, he'll jump for the lob and get a dunk. It's arguable just how dominant Wilt would be if he played in this era, but his physical characteristics alone would make him the first draft pick in any draft.
