I really think Jetblue decide to ask the man to change in order to appease the complains by his fellow travelers more than anything. These people are dumb.
Geez, I'm not even on anyone's side here, but that's terrible. If Citizens of the USA feel strongly that the US government is doing something wrong, it would be very un USA like to just get up and move. Why not discuss it? Why not argue about it? Why not put your power of voting to it? That's what people should do in the USA when they feel something is wrong, not move away. Anyhow back to the topic: So maybe this guy was looking to make a statement, or maybe he was just wearing one of his many T-Shirts. It is not unreasonable for him to expect dirty looks (he's already arab looking, and sadly looking arab, black, homeless, latino, poor, ghetto...any of those things will get you dirty looks in this country). The point of debate is that whether or not he should have been forced to take off the shirt because he made other people uncomfortable. No I agree with the contention that freedom should not be absolute if it risks public safety. That's why you can't say "I have a bomb" at an airport...it would start a riot and you'd get arrested. You're freedom of speech doesn't have value over safety there. And extending that logic, I would argue that your t-shirt cannot say "I'm a terrorist and will blow up this plane" because again, even though it's freedom of expression, you are putting general safety at a major risk because reasonable people could get rioty. Now where do you draw the line? This is where I would bring in Hank Hill common sense. The man wore a shirt. The shirt said in English "we will not be silent". It's about his opinions of the unjust Iraq war. That wasn't the issue. The security issue is that his shirt had Arabic writing on it. And though it said the same thing, security agents said they couldn't be sure and so he had to change. In my opinion, as a frequent flyer,...if I were a passenger on that plane I would not have been concerned. And if other people were openly concerned I would calm them down with common sense. Because, as i've contended earlier, this is a common sense issue...it's an idiot issue. If this guy's shirt said "I'm a terrorist and I bomb plane's" in English, then it is totally reasonable to get scared (even though airport security is super tight nowadays). But if you don't know what it reads, then why be scared? Just because it's written in Arabic shouldn't be enough to scare you. That's moronic. I'm not saying these complainers are always morons, but making a fuss over that was moronic. And people act moronic at airports all the time, and a lot of it has nothing to do with terrorism. A lot of people are insanely afraid of flying. The common sense thing to do is try to calm them down. Now unless these scared people start pulling a Marge Simpson and start running up and down the plane, then the flight should just go as planned. If a few passengers won't fly, it's their loss and they should pay for another ticket (or just get bumped to the next flight). If most of the passengers feel that way, then that is when you use common sense and forcefully remove the shirt from the guy while apologizing saying "sorry, most of these passengers have become idiotically afraid of your shirt because they can't read arabic, and even though we've already cavity searched you and drugged you so that you'd fall asleep for the next three hours, we're going to have to make you wear another shirt." Look, I can see that this is somewhat a gray area...but it's still so stupid to me because people being ignorantly afraid of Arabic is very close to people being ignorantly afraid of French or Spanish...and then people being ignorantly afraid of skin color. Security is important, but there needs to be some common sense. If the guy wants to make a statement and have people look down on him or even get into a good discussion with him that's fine...this is the USA. But he's not saying anything close to "I'm a terrorist" or "I bomb planes"...to me, a few people are just being dumb...and I think they are the one's who rarely fly. Us frequent flyers have a social responsibility to educate everyone and aleviate our insecurities at airports.
I wanted to add that before 9/11, i remember being on a plane where this lady was scared because the plane looked too old. The flight attendants calmed her down. She was being unreasonalby and idiotically scared. Now if everyone was crazy scared like her, then they'd have to change planes. We just need to have common sense prevail. I hope in time that we'll have more common sense and not less.
I didn't quote your previous post because of it's length, but it was a damned good one. Great stuff, and I wish you'd post here more often. Keep D&D Civil.
The worst part about this is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Caving into stupid fears about t-shirt writing just ends up scaring more people who add one more thing to the list of items that they profile. We're just needlessly drawing more attention to something that's completely irrelevant to the act of terrorism, and scaring an already paranoid public. Security is important, but direct it into the proper areas. Clothing probably isn't that important. Actually installing next generation scanning technology in our airports probably is. (the TSA and DHS should probably stop slacking in this department)
Yes well their actions were idiotic and contrary to the laws, traditions and constitution of the U.S. just like yours. And more attention would be brought to the subject and the limiting of non-threatening free speech. That's as it should be. "We will not be silenced." isn't a questionable shirt at all unless someone is scared of free speech. There are people who are, obviously, but I doubt that they will win. Yes this America 2006, I would rather it remain as true to American ideals as possible. If you don't like those ideals, then it is you who are welcome to leave. I will live in America, celebrate what it stands for, and hold those accountable who act contrary to that, and hopefully it will become a better place.
Lots of posters are arguing that the wording "We will not be silent" is not harmful, but my point is can any wording on a T-shirt be harmful at all? What if a stupid person put "I am a human bomb" or "I am a serial killer" on his T-shirt? Security can search him all they want, put him through all kinds detection machines, and make him be late for 5 planes in a row, but can they force him to change that T-shirt? What is free speech about? Just to make everybody happy, nobody complain? If someone complains, you have to forget about your free speech right? Not to mention, was he really reported for those English wording or Arabic ones others don't understand? Marcus Camby flies all the time, how many passengers can read his tatoo? How come nobody complains? Yes, that move was probably politically motivated, but that's no racial slur. Why can't he? Just because 9/11 changed everything? Everyone could be paranoid at some point, but if you are encouraged and supported for being paranoid, you could come up with some "paranoia" intentionally.
u buy your t shirt and plane ticket yet? didnt think so . im not the one with all the complaints about America
If you have a link where I can buy one, I will do it. I will be flying in November and December - quite possibly through JFK. By defending this curtailing of America's bill of rights and complaining about people exercising those rights, I would say you have complaints directed at the very heart of what America stands for. If you can't handle people exercising their rights, and sticking up for them, then you certainly do have a problem with America.
I bought two yesterday. Wife found the link to the actual anti-war group that sells them. http://thecriticalvoice.org/ You can also get them here, but you won't be supporting the group: http://www.shirch.com/ext.php?urrrl=https://www.spreadshirt.com/shop.php?sid=49378
Kim, good post. But in my opinion, "I will bomb this plane" on T-shirt, is certainly provacative, and it warrants extra attention and caution. Therefore, as I mentioned, the securtiy can search him all they want, and even to an extend to delay him for the next few flights. But once they conclude that they couldn't find anything on him and his luggage, they have to let him go with his T-shirt on. The claim of common sense and security doesn't hold water for the action to force him change the T-shirt. What's the ultimate difference between the second before and after that changing T-shirt, in him, the situation, safety of other people, IS that T-shirt. That wasn't even removed, but rather covered by a new T-shirt. So, on the end, it's just a formality change, NOT related to any security measurement or common sense. In other words, even if he planned to bomb the plane, after the thorough search and extra attention, even if he was still able to, with a new T-shirt on top of the old one, isn't going to save the plane, is it? Yes, no sane person should wear a T-shirt saying "I am going to bomb this plane", but democracy and freedom shouldn't be too fragile to be tested. I think the common sense is, even if he's a real danger, wearing another T-shirt won't decrease or increase any danger.
I agree with you that I don't see the person as a direct security risk if he's checked up on extensively. The person I'm writing of is this hypothetical guy who wears a "I'm bombing this plane" or "I'm gonna kill you" shirt. It's a different type of security that I'm valuing here. Yes, I agree that people have a right to make idiotic statements, a right to wear pretty much any shirt, and a right to say pretty much anything. But "pretty much" and "absolute" are different. It doesn't matter that the "I'm gonna bomb this plane" man is weak and unarmed. He is not a security threat in that sense. The risk and the safety threat comes from the fact that everyone he sees his shirt that states "I'm gonna bomb this plane" or "I'll kill you on the plane with my big knife"...those people will be scared and a mayhem could break out. It's a reasonable expectation and even though as I said I personally would not be scared of that wacko, I understand it if others are and I think it is within reason and common sense to value the overall social comfort and security well being of people over this guys' direct idiotic statement on his shirt. There are laws on the books curtailing these freedoms that have nothing to do with terrorism. There's the classic "you can't yell fire in a crowded theater" example when there is no fire. That's because you will cause a stampede without a good reason, and thus you would get arrested for it. So it's the gray line that you and I disagree on. Because I think you agree that the free expression cannot be absolute right? Because even if it's a weapons free, elderly man, he can't just be yelling out at the airport "I'm a terrorist" or "I will blow up the plane". And I'm saying that it's not unreasonalbe to extend the "you can't yell out that crap because you'll start a riot" logic to "you can't wear that crap either because people can get crazy". Of course we both agree that this real guy from the story basically got screwed.
I don't agree with everything Kim wrote in post #102, but I think it is a great post in that he not only genuinely addressed the issue in the context of air travel and spoke his own experience, but also looked at these things from flight security enforcement POV. Like it or not, 9/11 did change many things, especially when it comes to air travel. As a result, our freedom, ranging from speeches, activities, to the stuff you can bring with you onto an airplane, has been limited or restricted. We are not living in a perfect world, nor in a vacuum. Rather, we are living in a real world and we have to live with the reality. Every time I arrive at my local airport, I get earful of "watch for suspicious activities" announcements from the loudspeakers. I don't know about you guys, but I find that annoying and paranoiac, which reminds me of in the Cultural Revolution era in PRC the ubiquitous slogans "be vigilant against class enemies and their activities." But life goes on, doesn't it? You still have to travel by air in this modern time, since it has long become a necessity in our lives. Allow me to throw in a little NewYorkerish argument here, why are you lefties (heck I consider myself quite left-leaning) out there so paranoiac about people on a plane freaking out over a T-shirt? [Hey, feel free to ask why I am so freaked out about your paranoia, if you are only interested in playing this game] I personally am not a fan of airline industry -- there are a number of things I don't like about them, including their declining quality in customer service, unannounced long delays, sloppy luggage handling, lack of food service in long domestic flights, etc. But I can understand they have a business to run, and they are trying to do their best to uphold their number one priority, that is, to transport people from place to place in orderly and timely fashion. They are trying to accommodate people from all walks of life the needs to travel, not the needs to express themselves. Again, ask yourself what's your purpose to fly? Sure, the passengers who are freaked out by a T-shirt are chicken **** idiots, but hey, idiots have their needs to travel, just like you do, right? Moreover, what's the BFD you temporarily change or cover you controversial T-shirt just for the duration of the flight, especially when the crew/security offer you a free T-shirt? Help me understand, if you do not board a plane to travel from A to B, what do you really want to do? Kim wrote: That's a very sensible thing to do, indeed. I'd like to add "I would also convey to Mr. Free Speech that I admire his courage and standing up for principle while at the same time if he could be a bigger man and sort of tune down or put off the rhetoric just for the sake of calming down the spineless crew and the scared fellow passengers." Lastly, in response to Kim's for a little fun, I'd suggest to the crew/security my way to deal with the freaked out passengers in the following order: 1) identify who among all the passengers feel uneasy about that "We will not be silenced" T-shirt; 2) apologize to the T-shirt guy with the same message Kim wrote above while forcing him to either remove or cover his T-shirt; 3) hand out something attachable to clothings, to the freaked out passengers, that says "Look at me, I am afraid of harmless T-shirt." Have them "wear" the sign for at least half an hour on the flight.
I will. I will either be flying from LGA or JFK. I am not sure which yet, but I will wear it either way.
But how far does that freedom extend....... Could i wear a shirt that says.... Got Bombs? Yes....But would I wear it to the airport..NO!..Some common sense needs to be displayed here....Yes freedom of speech blah blah......But in the constitutional your not garunteed freedom of speach persay, just that Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech.....You have the right to not live in fear. Small request as this are a way to bring some stability to an unstable area such as an airport.
I haven't read every reply and I'm not going to. But this is ridiculous. The man's rights are not being infringed upon by the government. A private company is making him abide by some rules before they will do business with him. It would have been better if they wouldn't have made him take off his shirt, but it's not an infringement of rights, at all. This is a non-issue. Had a TSA official told him that he couldn't wear the shirt on the plane for security reasons, that would be a different story. Please, find something real to complain about. Real issues do exist.
