American pastor Terry Jones vows to hold national Koran burning event

a good laugh for a dark time

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Why do you bother - he obviously has a thing against Muslims and there's some deep seeded hatred there.

You can't change that, just stay away from it. Ironically, he'll probably be the one to commit an act of violence before anyone on this board even comes close.

 

Ooooooh yes...you got me there!

Spoiler

 

"And no religion too"

 

This is easy.

Let him do whatever he wants.

Personally, I can't even fathom being so disgustingly filthy as to burn a bible in exchange for his stupidity.

 

No, an observation. Baseless, at the time, but certainly not so horrible as to necessitate your childishly aggressive stance. Of course, you routinely get reamed here for voicing your views, so I suppose some annoyance at my quip was...natural.

I have explained a few times before why your attitude if flawed, only to see those posts ignored or rationalized away with cumbersome and utterly subjective semantics.

Interestingly, you were, just not too long ago, almost realizing the problem with your own attitude. But you just cannot let it go, almost to the point of a crutch. I suppose that is understandable, albeit sad - a lot of folks really need that boogeyman to justify their preconceived notions; a pity someone as smart as you seems unable to see the cowardice in such a stance.

 

I don't understand why the media doesn't ignore this clown. I wait I think I know...

It's sad that the media gets more viewers off pushing bad news instead of good. When did we become a society that feeds on bad news?

 

But it's legal. Why you guys making such a big deal?

 

Hi ATW,

A few sincere responses to follow and then a main point and a very sincere question for you.

(1 & 4) I see the point of your comparison, and burning books cannot be held on the level of murder, etc, obviously. But there are some (truly atrocious) apples, including murders, being compared to an orange. The apples are aimed at governments, rival sects, etc. They are villainous acts, but few of them seem overtly aimed "at Christians" (though you tend to put Islamic violence in that light a lot in these threads.)

As for "liberals," and what they do... I don't consider myself one. I'm a Christian by upbringing and basic beliefs, though I do not go to church every week. Even if I was a card-carrying liberal and agnostic, I think your statement about liberal feeling superior etc is a sad and inaccurate way to view people who disagree with you: oversimplify and paint with a negative, dismissive brush. Of course, you would not be alone in this practice! Lots of people from the left do it, and I've definitely done it recently with the tea party gang, etc. I just think you should reconsider that view of a big varied group of political thinkers. Just my 2 cents.

I probably have a warmer view of Islam than some because my interactions with muslims have been very direct and positive, not brought to me by the media. I've known many and work with some now.

(2) I think burning effigies of presidents and burning flags gets ignored b/c it is very, very different from burning books, (given the disturbing history of burning books on this planet, and where it leads), to say nothing of holy books worshipped by a billion people. One says "**** you, you person or political stance, or your war decision!" One says "**** you and your fundamental core beliefs and everyone on the planet like you." I find the latter one much, much more disturbing.

(3) Similarly, most Islamic violence around the world has the biggest direct impact on muslims or randoms groups of people (at a market.) Even the horrific events in New York obviously killed people of all faiths and were arguably aimed at an economic and political system more than a faith. So the comparison here isn't valid, to me at least.

You're ignoring a lot of Christian violence (e.g. northern Ireland, the church of Jim Jones, etc) b/c these people killed other Christians, I guess, or because that's out of some time window you've selected as "modern". But let's leave that alone for now.

In sum. Overall, these points are picking nits a bit. Here's what I'm interested in. I think it's obvious to everyone that you've got a firm and established feeling about Islam on planet Earth, and you can site many horrible actions and events to support this end point. But my question is: what do you hope to accomplish by your focus on it in this pseudo-public forum (and maybe other forums)?

You say the pastor just wants attention. I have no idea what he wants, but he really and truly thinks Islam is a horrible thing. And he wants to hurt the religion somehow. He has no interest in coexistence, from what I can tell. He wants to point out to people, as many people as possible, that the religion is dangerous, should be feared, and even abolished if possible. (Nobody says abolished, but what else could they possibly want, if given the choice?)

So while you don't burn the Quran or support burning the Quran (good for you; we all agree it's stupid), do your ultimate goals differ from the pastor's? I hope so, but I don't see what goals you can have here. (And if you're trying to sway people against Islam on this BBS, I have bad news for you.)

Finally, I spend so much time on this post because you live in Europe, if I remember correctly. Europe seems to be increasing its anti-Islamic sentiments fairly rapidly. There are good reasons for this, but there's also a very human weakness at work: define enemy, turn brain off, turn to friend, turn his brain off. The historical precedence for this is overwhelming.

There are countless serious problems in the world, and I would argue that (despite the heavy news coverage and terrifying violence of a few events), we have far, far, far more weighty problems on this planet and as a species than a group violent religious nuts. Compared the number of people without clean drinking water, without hope of food next week, to all the people murdered in terrorist acts. It's staggering.

I think there's a real worry that you are emblematic of a growing sentiment and obsessive focus on one group of people as the "source of trouble," when it's ultimately perpendicular to all sorts of things we need to be worried about. And I don't see the obsessive focus leading anywhere but more strife and bloodshed.

 

When we became a society that had "news"

 

I don't like the fact that this is being done by a church at all.

However, I don't understand how anyone can value copies of a book more than human life. I understand B-Bob's point that it's an affront on a people as a whole, but I really see it no different than burning the American flag. I'm Christian, but if they want to burn some Bibles, go ahead. There's a difference between burning however many copies of a book and trying to remove a book from existence.

How is burning a couple of books worse than extremism or terrorism?

I would think more people would view this the way Mathloom does...

I don't know, is this just an example of how we fundamentally view the world differently?

 

Doesn't this guy know that Jesus is metioned 25 times in the Koran and that Mary is mentioned 34 times!

He's burning his own lord's name.

What an idiot but he's got the right to burn a Koran just as the muslims have the right to build a Mosque near ground zero.

I do see the argument that those fools in the middle east/afghanistan/pakistan etc. will get riled up and it could hurt our troops there.

 

Josh Marshall speaks truth --

Taking Responsibility

Speaking just now on MSNBC James Zogby made a very good point -- and pressed Andrea Mitchell on it. His point was that sure, this Pastor Jones fool is one guy, who's managed to get worldwide attention for his stunt. But you cannot separate him, as I noted below, from the whole climate of hate speech and anti-Muslim agitation from the Newt Gingriches and the Sarah Palins and the rest of them.

At that point, Mitchell jumped in and said, wait, Palin said she disagrees with the Koran burning. To which Zogby replied, something to the effect of 'C'mon'. ANd that's just the right reply. This is the standard approach of race haters and demagogues. They keep stirring the pot, churning out demonizing rhetoric and hate speech. Then some marginal figure does something nuts and suddenly ... oh, wait, I didn't mean burn Korans. Where'd you get that idea from? We were just saying that Islam is a violent, anti-American religion and that American Muslims should stop building their mosques and focus on apologizing for 9/11 and maybe get out of America. But burn the Koran? No way.

That's a bit much.

Actions have consequences. This isn't about one guy.

--Josh Marshall

 

Honestly if Petraeus hadn't come out and said that burning the Koran would endanger American troops, I highly doubt Palin and others would have openly condemned burning the Koran.

 

Gosh, I can't say I expected this... I'm not quite sure how to feel about it yet.

Seems to be an amicable agreement between two parties (one of which is bats**t insane). However, it does set a dangerous precedent and yielding to discrimination... but like I said, I'm not sure how to feel yet.

 

What a crock. No it's not. Burning books is not the same as murdering people.

 

Good. Operation ClutchFans is off now.

 

There is no deal, just the ravings of a lunatic.