America Becoming More Liberal

rimbaud,

I know it can happen, but those who do marry outside of their race and still have "racist foundations" have either:

A.) Married for trophy's sake. And, in that case married for all the wrong reasons in the first place.

B.) Are the exception not the rule.

Somewhat, but not much. I was dirt poor as a kid (still not considered middle-class), so the economics of it aren't major.

I guess I was very very lucky to be raised by the parents I have. I never once heard my Dad or Mom ever say the "N" word, or any other racial slur. And, I myself have never aimed a racial slur at another person. Race just wasn't an issue for me growing up.

I do have a better understanding of how Blacks view the world and live in it. But, how else could I without being Black?

Whenever I do talk to minorities, and they eventually say, "I didn't know white dudes were this cool" (or something like that). I always feel the need to tell them that from my own experience, we aren't.

Not sure exactly what you mean here. But, again race was never an issue. I was never told I was "white", nor was I told someone else was "black".

I guess if I think about it, the experience has made me more aware of race. I notice interracial couple from miles away. I notice skinheads and rednecks from miles away. But, because I do walk around the city of Houston with a black woman at my side (for 12 years now), I would be negligent to not pay attention to what was going on around me. Being in an interracial relationship means you get to experience racism from four different angles:

1.) Whites pissed at you for "degrading their race".
2.) Blacks pissed at you for "taking one of their women".
3.) Whites who do not know about your relationship and share their racists ideologies (Geez, this one pisses me off the most)
4.) Blacks who do not know I'm around and share racist feelings about whites.

I probably have. More likely subconsciously than from external effort. For instance, my wife wants to give our children very plain names (Jeff, Eric, Aaron, Hannah, Ashely, Samantha, Jennifer). Whereas, I want to give them strong names that would envoke pride in their heritage. Her argument is that when she sends out her resume', or calls someone on the phone, or writes a letter, the first thing people see is her name, Kisha. And, she feels that her name puts her at an immediate disadvantage or pigeonholes her into a stereotype.

I admit that this may be the case, and I can even see her point. But I try to explain that to not give our children a name that they would be proud to have in front of their grandmother, cousins, aunts, uncles, and friends is in actuality hiding.

In reality, they would never know about our little disagreement, unless we told them. But, what if they did question us?

I am leaning towards Eric (for a boy), though, to my chagrin. But, any suggestions are welcome. And, yes "Hakeem" has already come under consideration, as has "Abdul" for a middle name. But, the middle and last names are set in stone, so we're still working on a first name.

But, the name is merely one aspect of her "culture". Give me more examples, and I can give you more answers.

Nope. My family is great, as is her's.

In fact, we more often get (from family members on both sides, to friends, to acquaintances, to strangers) the "Oh, your kids will be so pretty". Ugh, that not only puts a ton of pressure on us, but is a racial stereotype in itself. (And, it's mixed 50/50 on whites and blacks who say this)

To be truthful, right before my first or second date with her, I mentioned to my Mom that she was black. She did say one thing, "Honey, be careful. Sometimes black women just date white men to get at their money." To which I responded, "What about white women who date white men to get at their money?". She's never said a negative thing about race before or since.



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"I have a DREAM.........his name's Hakeem."
DREAMer's Rocket Page

 

Jeff,

I'm not one to say whether Mormonism is a "cult" or not, but I can tell you that Mormons are definitely NOT Christians.

There are tons of reasons why Mormons are not Christians:

• They believe that Jesus and Satan are biological brothers.
• They believe that Jesus is only the god of Earth, and that every planet has (or will eventually have) it's own god.
• They believe in the Book of Mormons, even though in the Book of Revelations it states that there will be no additions to the Word of God.
• They believe that they are on an immensely long journey of enlightenment with godhood being their reward. In fact, they believe they will (when I say they, I mean only the men) become gods of their own planet, and with the wife they married here on Earth they will provide the seeds to populate their own planet.
• As stated above, they believe that marriage is an eternal bond, not the "Til death do us part" bit.
• They believe that minorities through their "enlightenment" proces are also going through a "whitening process" as well.

Just because you call yourself a Christian doesn't mean your a Christian.

By the way, I do not hate nor condemn those who practice the Mormon faith. In fact, of the Mormons I know (which there are quite a few), they are the cream of the crop when it comes to being "good people". Maybe, I know an unproportional amount of good Mormons, maybe I don't. My point is that I have nothing against Mormons, or people of any other faith.

 

So you guys aren't going to come after me when I run for the white house as a Christian, even though I'm an atheist?

DREAMer:

Let me first point out that most scientists aren't concerned w/ 'disproving the bible'. It would be tantamount to wasting your time discussing little 2' purple elephants. It's ludicrous and immaterial to any scientific study. The only time someone has to address religion is when religious people take offense at any new findings that show their faith to be fallible.

I'll encourage you again to actually take a science class or two. Try your best to study the arguments w/o blinders or a safety blanket... i.e. don't presume to know or worse, need to know how something should or must turn out for your 'happy world' to continue to exist.

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It just goes to show how skewed our priorities are when Mo Taylor makes millions of dollars while some high school teacher, that can actually rebound, scrapes to make a living.

If Mo were half the power forward that Charles Barkley was, he'd be 3'2" and still board more than he does now.

 

And there is one good reason that they are: they believe that Christ is their savior. Biblically speaking, that's all it takes.

Jesus and Satan do have the same father.

Hey, it beats sitting around eating fruit from the Tree of Life all day.

Look at how many people have written, translated, and edited the Bible over the years. How do you know that the Old Testament didn't have a similar "no additions" clause that was edited out 1000's of years ago?

I like their motivational plan better than the "believe in me or burn forever in the darkness" dogma taught to Christians.

Well, the Protestents aren't even patient enough to wait for death anymore. I don't think divorce is anywhere in the Bible, right? Are Protestants not Christians, because their view of marriage is different from the Bible?

And Christians believe that women are not equal to men. That's in the Bible.

True, true. And just because you believe in Christ as your savior in spite of all of your sins, doesn't mean you're a Christian either . . . errr, wait a minute . . . Yes it does!

By denying that they are Christians, you, by virtue of your own dogma, are condemning them. Christians believe that if you don't believe in Christ, then you are going to Hell. Plain and simple. That means the Buddhist, Taoists, Jews, and especially, us atheists and agnostics are doomed.

And apparently, since the Mormons aren't Christians, they're pretty screwed too. That's too bad though. All of the Mormons that I've ever met are exceptionally good people. They are charitable, kind, trustworthy, and honest. Too bad they're going to burn.

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rereading all of this I have to ask 'what was the question?'

 

Here's some compassionate conservatism for you from our soon-to-be president:

The issue once again appeared on the radar screen when Bush announced at the November Republican Governors Association meeting that he would be making a National Jewish Coalition-sponsored trip to Israel. When asked by the same Texas reporter who intially relayed his view on heaven what he was going to say to Israeli Jews, Bush, obviously joking, said the first thing he would tell them is that they were all “going to hell.”
http://jewishworldreview.com/0899/BUSH1.ASP http://www.njchq.org/Bush_religion_WJW.html http://slate.msn.com/Readme/99-07-24/Readme.asp


[This message has been edited by outlaw (edited November 21, 2000).]

 

Clutch,

It's not the same Jesus Christ of the Bible.

They have taken the name Jesus and created a whole new being with an entirely different history.

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"I have a DREAM.........his name's Hakeem."
DREAMer's Rocket Page

 

Launch Pad,

Either you have not read all of my posts or you chose to ignore them.

I can call my cats 'Christ' and create a religion to worship them. It doesn't mean I believe that the Jesus of the Bible is my savior nor that I'm a Christian.

Read my reply to Clutch above.

Do you have any brothers? I do. That's how Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are related. They believe that God had sex with his wife and gave birth to both Jesus and Satan, along with other children.

In the Bible, Satan is described as an angel. Jesus is not an angel. Hence, they are not following a very basic idea from the Bible.

Umm, okay you got me here. What are you even talking about?

Because the whole Old Testament was teachings and prophecies leading up to the coming of Christ. The New Testament is the actual teachings of the prophetic saviour mentioned in the Old Testament. So, how could the Old Testament tell of the coming Son of God, but then not allow his teachings to be included in the Word of God?

John the apostle wrote Revelation. In Revelation Chapter 22, verse 18 - 19, it says,

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of th ebook of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Now, if you don't want to believe in the Bible, fine. But, if you want to call yourself a Christian, as the Mormons do, then how can they add to "this book"?

Mormons still believe in hell to, you know. Not only that, they believe that all other faiths are going there, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, etc.

There is a difference in not doing what the Bible says (staying married), and changing what the Bible says, (that marriage between a man and a woman is only for our lives here on Earth). Also, I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think people who are divorced have broken any convenant with God until they've remarried or had sex outside their first marriage.

Besides, Mormons get divorced too.

And, they're not. Men have larger brains, larger more muscular bodies, men have testicles, women have ovaries, women have mild producing mammory glands, men do not.

That's in the Old Testament anyways. The Old Testament was written specifically to the Jews. This doesn't mean that no one else can or should read it, nor that no one else can learn valuable lessons from it. Just that it is a different way of interacting with the human race, than the New Testament.

No, I am not. I do not decide who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. Only one "person" gets to do that, God.

Yes, that is what the Bible says. (Except the "Jew" part. God has a different plan for the Jews) But, like I said, it's not up to me. Anyways, how many other religions say, "It's okay if you don't believe in our religion, you'll still be: "saved", "enlightened", "reincarnated", "god-like", or whatever?

I share your opinion of the people I know who are Mormon. I wish none of them were Mormon, I wish no one was nothing but Christian, but it isn't going to be like that. God gave us free will, to choose whatever we want to choose. I've chosen Christianity. Other people have chosen other paths. I wish them the best, because I don't have a big sign hovering over me saying, "I'm going to Heaven, how about you?"

 

People....CHILL OUT!!!!

Please don't let the animosity generated by the political threads spread to all of the threads!

We can agree to disagree, but let's be civil!

If this constant animosity and lack of respect spreads to the Rockets-related threads, then I'm running for the nearest bomb-shelter!!



Can't we all just get along???????

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I am the b*stard son of LHutz.

Huh?

Right!

[This message has been edited by RocketMan Tex (edited November 21, 2000).]

 

Heh, actually most people do just what you said about being predisposed towards evolutionary theories. I bet you and and your wife did. I've taken many biology courses (molecular biology, cell physiology, cell biology, toxicology, immunology, virology) and none of them have given proof for evolution. Some of them have raised doubts, in fact.

Just for a quick and short example because I have to pack for Turkey Day (yeah, I get to come back to HTown for the first time in six months and actually see a Rockets game!): When you have a large metabolic pathway that includes harmful or toxic intermediates it is difficult to say how such a pathway could develop without cellular regulation. Yet where the advantage for such a regulation method be without the metabolic process to regulate?

There are other problems with largly missing segments of a fossil record also. One of my major disapointements about my undergrad years is that I never took any geology classes so I do not have much expertise in this area but I know that it is an issue.
I am not saying that either creation or evolution is the correct theory, just that it is as bad to dismiss the one as to dismiss the other.

dylan

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RMTex,

You so silly!

DREAMer,

You said that you did not understand my question about becoming more aware of race externally/internally, but then answered it perfectly.

Do you ever think about the wite supremecists who would consider you worse than a black because you are a traitor of your race?

Funny, isn't it? They would want to harm you before harming an ethnic. Don't worry, I am in the same boat as you (although my wife is not black).

You are lucky your family does not care. Some of mine does (although not immediate, so I do not care).

Was that a Brian Kagy post I saw?

Two posts in this thread and I still have not posted about religion? Wow, what self-restraint.

Jeff,

Yes, that was somehwat cynical of me, but I still see too much selfishness, greed, apathy, and lack of compassion to be too cheery.

I cannot help that it pains me deeply to know what really goes on in this country and not to see too many people who want to change it. I have seen and experienced both worlds (social high/low) both make me sad, for very different reasons.

I do not think of how far we have come, only of where we should be.

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EZLN

 

Now, now...no need to make this an X-rated thread.

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"It's a great idea. A girl's name for a guy and lots of theatrics. I wish I'd thought of that."
--Alice Cooper discussing Marilyn Manson

 

Whoever we are
Wherever we're from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
It's gonna take a lot more
Than tryin' to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether

They call it THE EARTH
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
'Cause we behave the same . . .
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near 'n far
Dumb all over,
Black 'n white
People, we is not wrapped tight

Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
Religious fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin' the Bible
Tells the story
'N makes the details
Sound real gory
'Bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Don't believe in the book
We got over here

You can't run a race
Without no feet
'N pretty soon
There won't be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religious fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it won't blow up
'N disappear
It'll just look ugly
For a thousand years . . . )

You can't run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state

TO ARMS! TO ARMS!
Hooray! That's great
Two legs ain't bad
Unless there's a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (Get Down!)
Not his, not hers (but what the hey?)
The Good Book says:
"It gotta be that way!"
But their book says:
"REVENGE THE CRUSADES . . .
With whips 'n chains
N hand grenades . . . "
TWO ARMS? TWO ARMS?
Have another and another
Our God says:
"There ain't no other!"
Our God says
"It's all okay!"
Our God says
"This is the way!"

It says in the book:
"Burn 'n destroy . . .
'N repent, 'n redeem
'N revenge, 'n deploy
'N rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
'Cause they don't go for what's in the book
'N that makes 'em BAD
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice French bomb
To poof them out of existance
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise
OUR GOD
("Cause he can really take care of business!")

And when his humble TV servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blonde wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
It's okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
'Cause if we don't do it,
We ain't gwine up to hebbin!
(Depending on which book you're using at the time . . . Can't use theirs . . . it don't work . . . it's all lies . . . Gotta use mine . . . )
Ain't that right?
That's what they say
Every night . . .
Every day . . .
Hey, we can't really be dumb
If we're just following God's Orders
Hey, Let's get serious . . .
God knows what he's doin' . . .
He wrote this book here
An' the book says:
"He made us all to be just like Him," so . . .
If we're dumb . . .
Then God is dumb . . .
(An' maybe even a little ugly on the side)


Thank You Frank Zappa


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'Deeds, not words, shall speak me.'

 

dylan,

Whoa. We've got a couple of different conversations going eh? Don't cross the streams!

I love this site. DREAMer and Clutch are about to have an 'Assembly of God' vs LDS. war.

The great thing about being a scientist is that you're always trying to learn more about reality by trying to disprove the very knowledge that you cherish. The same can't be said for religious people b/c they merely start w/ their conclusion and backtrack to find every premise that will support that conclusion. Yes, scientists sometimes erroneously do the same (beit for religion or some other bias (i.e. antireligious fervor)) but I maintain that the good scientists, by definition, are (marginally more) objective.

Jeff,

These discussions aren't unhealthy. I used to fear that they were, but I have a new view on these things (partly b/c I only have 'damn mormon' friends now ). DREAMer isn't just making blanket statements to condemn one faith or the other, he's opening himself up by communicating what is important in his faith. It's no different than my actually allowing missionaries into my condo. It's a learning experience (for all of us, LDS, atheists, AOG, Caths).

As an atheist, I guess I might be able to ask this question a little bit more honestly than others: who cares if Mormons are Christians or not? What is wrong w/ what DREAMer is posting? We all respect Judaism, and Jews don't believe Christ to be the son of GOD. Mormons should celebrate their differences with other people. Catholics have the Apocrypha, Mormons the 'Book of...'. So, a Christ (like?) figure came to NA. Jews turned into Native Americans in only 2000 years. This is a cool story. Open it up.

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It just goes to show how skewed our priorities are when Mo Taylor makes millions of dollars while some high school teacher, that can actually rebound, scrapes to make a living.

If Mo were half the power forward that Charles Barkley was, he'd be 3'2" and still board more than he does now.

 

Clutch,

No ego at all, man.

How am I "translating" it correctly or incorrectly? Just about the last thing in the Bible (a couple of paragraphs before the end) states clearly that nothing should be added to It.

I've never once heard anti-Mormon teaching in any of the churches I've been to: Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist, Assembly of God.

I have gathered from Jeff's post above that you are Mormon? I didn't know that. Sure, I guess looking back there've been signs, but you've never come out and said you were (in the three+ years I've been here).

I apologize if I've offended you (and obviously I have). I'll state again that I have several Mormon acquaintances, and I enjoy being in the company of all of them. Again, the Mormons I know are among the best "people" I know.

I would be irritated if someone said that I wasn't a Christian too. But, I have outlined not one, but several instances where the Mormon faith contradicts what's taught in the Bible (a book which Mormons claim to believe in). We disagree. I don't have a problem with that. I just wish you hadn't come out with such an agressive post aimed at me, personally.

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Jeff,

It doesn't matter what I or other people believe. I was just letting my beliefs known.

Very weird, but in the Bible nonetheless.

I am not "glad" anyone is a Mormon or gay Athiest (or anything but a true Christian, and by that I mean to exclude anyone who professes to be Christian, but is not... not singling out anyone). I am glad however that I've been able to discuss things with Clutch and outlaw. It has given me the opportunity to hear differing views.

I am not "glad" nearly 25% of my Dad's family is homosexual (Anyone with 4 or more kids on his side has at least one gay/lesbian child. His parents had 8 kids, one gay, one lesbian, and the same true for his brothers and sisters, but four seems to be the "magical" number), nor and I "glad" some of my personal friends are athiests.

I also believe that any Mormon is not "glad" someone else is not Mormon. Because if they were, or I was, then I/they would just be glad that they did not have a relationship with Jesus.

But, it's their choice, and I don't go around telling them how they're wrong for being the way they are every time I see them. Being a Christian, I believe that "choice" is a God-given gift, so who am I to question it?

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rimbaud,

At first, I wasn't sure what you meant, but I thought about it and came back to it later to attempt an answer.

No, not funny. But, I know what you're talking about. It's just the hate they have inside themselves. They try to release it at any given chance.

I am lucky, and very thankful. My situation is most likely not the norm. What is your situation (if you don't mind my asking)?

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Achebe,

What if I went around saying I was an athiest, but tried to convert people to a certain religion? And, what if I were very very successful at it?

You then might you have a problem with me calling myself an athiest?

I have an Athiest backing me up, and a Mormon pissed off at me now.... Oh what a tangled web we weave.

-----------------------
TheFreak,

That was pretty funny.

[This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited November 21, 2000).]