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America – The Grim Truth

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by madmonkey37, Jun 5, 2010.

  1. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    No one said you have to love it. It's just weird that America sucks so bad and still more people want to come here rather than leave. That includes the poor.
     
  2. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    While there is income inequality, at the same time the poor are becoming better off. And don't forget there is such a thing as income mobility, where people can move up classes.

    Since 1980, the US extended it's economic lead over many developed European countries. Normally, you expect countries that are behind to adapt and catch up.

    But maybe you don't think it's worth it because we only get 2 weeks of vacation and dont have universal healthcare. Maybe Greece had the right idea in having so many comfortable government jobs and time off. It's a matter of preference. But it's just simplistic and misleading to say it's some kind of rich person conspiracy.
     
  3. dmc89

    dmc89 Member

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    lol the Kool-Aid point was aimed at several European countries like the UK who adopted our model of the financial services sector dominating the entire GDP sector and being so powerful i.e. that a group of 30 bankers destroyed Iceland's economy.

    From John Lanchester's book, IOU, the entire culture that dealt with the primacy of business, of money, of deregulation, of putting the interests of the financial sector first, all of this created a secular religion in the belief of the free market (Anglo-American style, different kinds of capitalism): laissez-faire capitalism, the supernaturally self-regulating nature of the market, and the superiority of the free market to all other forms of human organization.

    America from 1945 to the early 80s was an economic miracle that was a mixed capitalist society. I only hope we can return to that equilibrium otherwise the future of this country is not looking good.
     
  4. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    Let's take Germany for instance. Why is it that a country with about 1/4 the population, higher wages, 3 times as many employee vacation days on average, national healthcare insurance, and a higher value currency - has still been a better exporter than the USA (Germany's ranked #1 or #2 for the past decade)?

    Is it because they're lazier or not any brighter or both, I'm not really sure :grin:
     
  5. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    And I seem to recall hippie liberals spitting on the heroes when they arrived back from war. Go ask the thousands of vietnamese who gather every year at hong kong city mall on bellaire how they feel about the USA pulling out.

    They will be waving this flag.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. dmc89

    dmc89 Member

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    I studied economics at Chicago (a champion of free markets) and can tell that is very misleading. There is incredibly complex analysis behind studies that you might've read that suggest movement of people to a higher bracket. There's not that many studies to begin with. In addition, the ones that have gotten the most publicity are the ones that support the very ideologies that nearly crippled the Western world's economies such as those published in the Wall Street Journal, National Review, etc. People like Paul Krugman, Stiglitz, and Galbraith, along with UC Berkley will happily provide you with counter studies.

    I don't know how much you've studied the subject matter, and to be honest I've forgotten lot of the differential equations needed to support my own models, so I'll just leave it at this: simple numbers like US GDP growing from $5.2tr to $13.2tr from 1980 to 2010 don't tell you anything about the changes in society, real wages, level of natl debt/person,etc. There's a whole range of problems facing the US today that economics simply can't explain.

    For now, here's a simple one from the Fed Res of Boston:

    http://www.bos.frb.org/economic/wp/wp2009/wp0907.pdf

    Agree that America gives you the best chances of moving up the income ladder than anywhere else. But don't use Greece as an example every time. It's not nearly as simple as people claim and there's a whole lot of other problems besides the generic one you mentioned that rise from its historical development, the problems within the euro-zone since the 70s, ECB policies etc.
     
  7. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    Iceland is just one example. Countries that have adopted free market reforms have far outperformed countries that haven't.
     
  8. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    I agree it's complicated. It's also simplistic to just say "America sucks for the poor." People vote with their feet. Inside of the US, where are most people migrating to? Socialist* Texas.

    *Sarcasm.
     
  9. SunsRocketsfan

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    well the OP basically listed 5 or 6 developed countries he/she claims is better than the US.

    A lot the OPs complaints are very subjective. Ask another person and they could easily just write about all the wonderful benifits there are to live in the US. Which is why I said you need to realize there are issues and problems all around the world.

    Also I am trying to live a happy fulfilling life which is why I said the original article is just a one sided bashing of the US. With that attitude I doubt you are going to be very happy.
     
  10. Red Chocolate

    Red Chocolate Contributing Member

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    You're brainwashed, though. If you can't see the writing on the wall by now, you probably never will, barring a miracle. This article is spot on. But feel free to stay where you are and watch the Gulf decay and spread until you're surrounded by prison walls bordered by a moat of putrid filth.
     
  11. Red Chocolate

    Red Chocolate Contributing Member

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    The free thinkers who are BORED AS HELL by the education system (obvious brainwashing), get diagnosed with ADHD (we don't want free thinkers in this society!).

    Then you have the HFCS kids whose parents have no clue how to feed it, bouncing off all the walls. But here, take this pill and that will solve all your problems. Take your soma, boys and girls, and mommy and daddy will fix all your problems.
     
  12. Red Chocolate

    Red Chocolate Contributing Member

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    Nothing could be further from the truth. Unless you make a high middle class salary, are extremely frugal, and know what to eat, your diet is going to be toxic. If you want untainted meat you have to spend 3-5x the cost and organic produce is more expensive as well. 90% of the country's diet is garbage, and it's no coincidence.

    We house more prisoners than any nation in history, and we're supposed to be a 'free country'. Laughable.
     
  13. Red Chocolate

    Red Chocolate Contributing Member

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    loooooool. We're basically a service economy controlled by a corporatocracy. China owns us, bankers own us, we're headed down the tubes fast. Then again it's hard to see something you never were intended to be able to see.
     
  14. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    With proper medication you could have been at the top of your class.
    .
    .
    .
    (just kidding)
     
  15. Rockets1616

    Rockets1616 Member

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    so, their brains are built "different" so you stick them on speed :rolleyes: . Its the education system's fault for not having a resonable plan to deal with these kids, other than to give them amphetamines....
     
  16. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Well we could get into public health statistics, life expectancy, peace of mind about health care and income in your old age, lack of student loans weighing on young folks, vacations etc. but you wouldn't care.

    Blind acceptance of talking points by folks way above your pay scale.
     
  17. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    1) There is like one case of a person spitting on a Viet Vet. Maybe you should check an urban legend site or do some research. It is quite effective propaganda as we can see from your misinformed ire. Sorry to inform you.

    2) Those Vietnamese on Bellaire on our side were among those who had their relatives killed in the millions because we prolonged the war when Ho Chi Minh, the popular George Washinton or Vietnam would have won 20 years earlier without American stalemating thihg prior to our defeat.
     
  18. Shroopy2

    Shroopy2 Contributing Member

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    (Removing the pay )
    USA = Lebron, Kobe. NBA. Love/Hate relationship. All of them a lightning rod of criticism for various reasons. Because they are more visible, its easier to analyze them.

    Europe/World = College Basketball. Its about tradition, its about pride and the love of the sport.

    Similar but with some key differences. NBA has Dictator Stern and commercialization, though college management has its structural issues as well. College generally has the mindset of "our kids are better citizens than your kids", or "we're clean and they're dirty". NBA they just blame everything on the refs and hip hop culture. 1 might be better than the other, but by how much? And is one really right or wrong in saying 1 is better than the other?


    I have NO problem critiquing America and looking overseas for answers.
    I don't think the #1 and 2 economies should translate into #9 and 10 standard of living.
    I don't like overpromoting Utopia and living off glittering generalities and forced patriotism.
    I don't like assuming USA is #1 in EVERYTHING. If I'm the small minority doing that and everyone else is, shame.
    I don't mind doing a yearly audit of American culture. Persuade me. I'm all ears. Most Americans still appreciate a good deal.


    I myself had issue of how THAT ARTICLE attempted it. When the dust settles, America is overrated but perhaps not entirely terrible. This guy's approach is they're coming to GET you, they're poisoning your wells and raping your women and building walls around you, move OUT before its too laaaaaaaaaaaate .

    I need more proof for that than we're eating s***ty food. While life expectancy is still increasing despite grim reports. And US has less people smoking than they've had in 50 years. (But then you can make a big fuss about US denying smoker's their rights with big sin taxes that just powers certain interest groups. While other countries they let you smoke, drink and snort coke off of a stipper's belly DURING work, and all paid for by the company. While the wife at home agrees to every bit of it...)
     
  19. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    We already knew The Grim Truth. He's on TV even as we speak.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    And yet...Germany, when you look at productivity, quality of life indexes, and purchasing power per capita lags far behind the U.S.?

    How can the stats contradict you so badly???
     

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