Wow. Lots of x-files watchers here, lol. The US is not comparable to Nazi Germany, and the holocaust was not invisible to the everyday German. The actual live cremation was maybe, although there was plenty of information about that as well, but not the concentration camps. The holocaust or 'final solution' didn't start until well into 1942, a time by which Hitler's Nazi apparatus was a completely different animal than the Bush administration. Remember Bush barely (arguably) won his first election - there is no comparison to the Hitler regime. The Rebuilding America's Defenses paper doesn't say anything about taking over the Persian Gulf/Middle East, or even intervening there again.
So you agree that the Sunday Herald quote on the previous page is incorrect? And if you don't mind, can you point me to the pages in the NEP that talk about taking over the Gulf? Thanks for the help!
Better yet, read the document itself, lol. It talks about maintaining bases already in the ME, not about taking over the Gulf.
I haven't read that, but I did read Richard Rhodes' Masters of Death : The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust. Rhodes does go into great detail about the command structure and the individual decisions and how many had to get drunk, etc. I'm not arguing for the wholesale acceptance of Goldhagen's thesis, but he does add some complexity to the debate...and the reason I mentioned the Rosenbaum book is that it's his conclusion that all the theories are flawed, not only because words fail, but also because of what the authors bring to the table. The depths indeed.
bobrek- if you knew me in person you would probably brand me a Bush republican, very conservative. But after I read carefully that one book- "Crossing the Rubicon" I started choking on my republicanism. I read the book in the fall of 2004 as soon as it was released. I found it by accident. And I have been reading and studying the events of 9-11 ever since. The book does not deal with physical evidence and it is very compelling. The book itself is not a full proof case for conviction but rather a splendid amount of research that documents the testimony that would lead anyone reasonably to that conclusion. You will at least know something isn't right. I'll send you a copy if you like. (It's over 600 pgs.)
I'm spoiled by audible.com. I now only listen to books that long. I'll check it out at the local library....
Interesting stuff from the site KingCheetah posted: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html Eye Witness Testimony: Lets look at some eye witness testimony sticking only to people who saw a plane hit the building, and not look at people who saw an airliner, but didn't see an airplane hit the building because they looked away or were too far away (behind a hill, behind a building, etc) to see it actually hit the building. "Aydan Kizildrgli, an English language student who is a native of Turkey, saw the jetliner bank slightly then strike a western wall of the huge five-sided building that is the headquarters of the nation's military. 'There was a big boom,' he said. 'Everybody was in shock. I turned around to the car behind me and yelled "Did you see that?" Nobody could believe it.'" - "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001 "Frank Probst, an information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program, left his office trailer near the Pentagon's south parking lot at 9:36 a.m. Sept. 11. Walking north beside Route 27, he suddenly saw a commercial airliner crest the hilltop Navy Annex. American Airlines Flight 77 reached him so fast and flew so low that Probst dropped to the ground, fearing he'd lose his head to its right engine." - "A Defiant Recovery." The Retired Officer Magazine, January 2002 "Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. 'It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,' Mr Campo said. 'I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.'" - "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001 "Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. 'There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.'" - "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001 "Henry Ticknor, intern minister at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Arlington, Virginia, was driving to church that Tuesday morning when American Airlines Flight 77 came in fast and low over his car and struck the Pentagon. 'There was a puff of white smoke and then a huge billowing black cloud,' he said." - "Hell on Earth." UU World, Jan/Feb 20 "We were the only people, we think, who saw it live," Dan Creed said. He and two colleagues from Oracle software were stopped in a car near the Naval Annex, next to the Pentagon, when they saw the plane dive down and level off. "It was no more than 30 feet off the ground, and it was screaming. It was just screaming. It was nothing more than a guided missile at that point," Creed said. "I can still see the plane. I can still see it right now. It's just the most frightening thing in the world, going full speed, going full throttle, its wheels up," - Ahwatukee Foothill News Gary Bauer former Presidential candidate, "I looked at the woman sitting in the car next to me. She had this startled look on her face. We were all thinking the same thing. We looked out the front of our windows to try to see the plane, and it wasn�t until a few seconds later that we realized the jet was coming up behind us on that major highway. And it veered to the right into the Pentagon. The blast literally rocked all of our cars. It was an incredible moment." Massachusetts News Sean Boger, Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower chief - "I just looked up and I saw the big nose and the wings of the aircraft coming right at us and I just watched it hit the building," Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower chief Sean Boger said. "It exploded. I fell to the ground and covered my head. I could actually hear the metal going through the building." dcmilitary.com November 16, 2001 "The only way you could tell that an aircraft was inside was that we saw pieces of the nose gear. The devastation was horrific. It was obvious that some of the victims we found had no time to react. The distance the firefighters had to travel down corridors to reach the fires was a problem. With only a good 25 minutes of air in their SCBA bottles, to save air they left off their face pieces as they walked and took in a lot of smoke," Captain Defina said. Captain Defina was the shift commander [of an aircraft rescue firefighters crew.] NFPA Journal November 1, 2001 That's just a small smattering of people who have gone on record as seeing the plane, and the plane hit the Pentagon. I could have included the dozens of people who saw the plane, but didn't see it hit (because it went behind a bridge, a hill, or some trees), but I choose only to post the ones that sounded the most valid and actually saw the plane hit the building. (I included the one firechief who states he saw some plane wreckage during firefighting/rescue attempts.) There are most likely twenty times more that either haven't been publicly recorded as seeing the crash, or simply don't want the attention. You can't honeslty sit there and deny the witnesses, the photographs, the facts, the science, and the reality that there was a terrorist attack on the Pentagon if you look at everything available and not one single tidbit of information at a time. 911 Tape of EMV responding to the Pentagon - includes video outside and inside the building in some areas. (Real Audio Required) Conclusion I highly doubt that local firefighters would be involved in any sort of a coverup. I highly doubt that local police officers would be involved in any sort of a government cover up. Cops and firemen are just average Joes like you and me, who go home to the wife and kids, and just try to make a living and have a good life for their families (I have many friends in both professions - of course the firemen are usually more stable marriage-wise because of their job but that doesn't make the cops any less human than you or I). The men and women who pulled over a hundred people (dead and alive) out of that building would more likely than not have noticed somebody carrying over 60 bodies into the middle of the fire they were fighting. To say that the plane that hit the Pentagon was not filled with every single person who died in this terrorist attack (not counting the unfortunate people inside the building) is one thing and one thing only - ignorant. Review the facts Size of 757 matches the initial size of hole in the building - somewhere between 13 and 16 feet (757 is 13 feet wide/high) Rims found in building match those of a 757 Small turbine engine outside is an APU Same engine has been clearly stated to not match a Global Hawk engine Blue seats from 757 laying on ground in photos Part of "American" fuselage logo visible in more than 1 photo Engine parts photographed inside match a Rolls-Royce RB211 Structural components photographed in wreckage match Boeing paint primer schemes Large deisel generator in front of building hit by a large heavy object Large deisel engine outside is spun towards the building - could not be result of bomb blast or missile explosion Multiple eye witnesses say they saw an airliner Multiple eye witnesses say they saw an airliner hit the Pentagon 60+ bodies, matching the passenger list and flight crew roster identified and returned to families from Pentagon wreckage ---- The site makes a compelling argument and a good read. I haven't made up my mind about all this yet (and possibly never will) but it's always good to see both sides.
Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. 'There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.' - "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001 Extremely strong evidence for a 757 impact -- a cruise missile or a fighter jet wouldn't bend steel freeway lampposts hundreds of yards away.
Good question. We have all seen over and over the impact of the second plane on the south tower. Why not show us the video of the plane hitting the Pentagon? Its not like we aren't use to senseless killing at this point. I think we can handle seeing the plane strike the Pentagon.
Maybe they did not want to show it again and again.....or maybe the family of the victims requested it not to be shown. Who knows...but it clearly WAS a 757... DD
At least show it once. I’m not claiming there is a conspiracy theory, just a little curious to why there is so much secrecy on that specific hit.
they dont have to release it on the news, maybe they can just make it a download for those that want final satisfaction and ban it from being played on the airwaves.
